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Child Item

New Children's Hospital - A symbol of Ireland's scandalous and shady behavior

Markus Antonius

At least 3 or 4 times a year there is a new scandal linked to the new childrens hospital. Almost always either about the final cost or of the date of completion. These are always dismissed and forgotten about because sher what harm is another few hundred million and it's for the children remember so how dare you question it:

"the only scandal in relation to the project would have been to cancel it" - Simon Harris

I watched some very interesting footage a few weeks back on the building of the Empire State building in New York. The building was on such a mammoth proportions that they had to dig right down to the bedrock of Manhattan to find stone solid enough to support it.

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdDECW5FLAM&ab_channel=Rick88888888)

This was all during the height of the Wall Street Crash. And yes, building regulations, labour/material costs etc. were nowhere near what they are today and yes, the Empire State building is not of hospital standard, but you only have to look at the figures to see that there is something seriously wrong:

(Source Wikipedia)

We are all fully aware that the government simply chose the cheapest and quickest offer from the contractors (BAM) and signed off on an open-ended tendering process (essentially writing a blank cheque with little repercussion for missed timelines). And this doesn't even touch on the "Consultancy" contracts. All to the detriment to the tax payer.

But it's all for the sick children, how dare you!

An interesting thread was started a few years back but of course was scoffed at and dismissed to the cesspit of the conspiracy forum. The thread pointed to the very fact that the hospital is shaped like a serpent eye, a symbol notoriously linked with evil and shady business.

This cannot simply be an underestimate of costs and lead time. The question is, how long before the real scandal is truly exposed?

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Cluedo Monopoly

State awards €1bn children’s hospital contract to BAM Ireland – The Irish Times

You have to laugh...2017 article

The contract to build the long-awaited national children’s hospital in Dublin has been awarded – at a price €300 million more than the original budget of €650 million.

BAM Ireland, one of the State's largest building contractors, has been selected as the preferred bidder to build the hospital for a price understood to be close to €1 billion.

Former minister for health Leo Varadkar said funding was in place and "short of an asteroid hitting the planet", the hospital would be built by 2020.

..........

Government never ever got control of the project. They still don't.

Cluedo Monopoly

The new children’s hospital: what’s taking so long? – The Irish Times

The new children’s hospital: what’s taking so long?The latest completion projection is now late 2021 or early 2022, almost 40 years after the first proposal.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768364#Comment_121768364

As a Dubliner I'd rather it was in Athlone, as I'd get there quicker in an emergency than I will in the 10km journey I'll face to this hospital.

I'm nearly willing the delays to keep coming, in the hope my kids will be too old to attend by the time it actually opens.

Mrs. DTR, the kids are sick, will you top up my leap card so I can take a dart then luas to get them to hospital.

Cluedo Monopoly

And will it be big enough?

Will its 380 beds be enough when children’s hospital finally opens at stratospheric cost? – The Irish Times

Facility to be among the most expensive of its kind worldwide, when Switzerland has built larger hospital in Berne for €700m.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768803#Comment_121768803

Improvements in outcomes are not solely or mostly due to centers of excellence being centralised in one location in Dublin. That a false equivalence on many levels.

There is a litany of issues with the NCH project starting with the Mater. A litany of manipulation. Having failed to convince anyone. You've now resorted to insults. Speaks volumes.

Building any major project on restricted site with no room for future expansion is such poor planning.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768364#Comment_121768364

You must be taking the piss. I used to live in the Dundrum/Rathfarnham area and damn sure I would rather go to Blanch than try and get into the James area for anything.

Greenfield site with parking or one of the worst areas of the city, nobody is choosing James. Not without a brown envelope anyway.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768911#Comment_121768911

I never said anything about centres of excellence in Dublin. They are all over the country but generally focused on large teaching hospitals. It also meant a lot of treatment moved away from regional hospitals though, which was opposed. For reasons I understand for the most part, which is that the natural response of people is to assume treatment closer to home is always better. But that simply isn't true.

Where have I resorted to insults?

There was no perfect site. They all had drawbacks.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768937#Comment_121768937

You're arguing for centralisation in Dublin in one breath while giving a decentralised example on the next. A politician would be embarrassed.

Literally no one's arguing for it to be "closer" to them.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768888#Comment_121768888

We know the answer that one.

They'll say we don't have the resources to staff more beds. Guess where the resources went.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768926#Comment_121768926

It has been established that the medical consultants would not work in Blanch.

That is too far for them to travel from houses in south Dublin.

They are a powerful lobby group.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121769150#Comment_121769150

How does Blanch manage to function with no consultants. Someone needs to correct their website with this information.

What's the travel limit of a consultant. Just wondering does it exclude Beaumont for example. Perhaps we need to build all hospitals in South Dublin.

Geuze

I'm simply reporting what I heard.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768952#Comment_121768952

I am saying that having the Leinster regional Secondary Children's Hospital and the National Tertiary Hospital with a patient pool that is 70% from the GDA should be in Dublin yes.

Centres of Excellence are the exact opposite of decentralised care. You are just conflating centralisation with "Dublin". This is the very reason people opposed them at the time as they would have to travel further to receive care. My point originally was that polls of the population is a crappy way to decide where hospitals should be.

tom1ie

I thought the whole problem with the runaway cost of the NCH was because the contractor was never given a detailed scope and design drawings no?

If this is the case then whoever were the project managers in charge should never have awarded the contract to begin with until said scope and detailed drawings were in place.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121769312#Comment_121769312

A lot of consultants travel considerably. I’ve attended plenty of consultants who travel a fair bit in their work. It’s totally untrue that consultants must walk from the door of one hospital to another, when a cohort of them travel between counties to work in various hospitals. Nowadays with hi tech communication systems expertise can be easily shared between consultants once in a compatible time zone. Some surgeons operate Da Vinci robotic machines remotely! Medicine has come a long long way, and distance medicine is a very real concept that’s happening regularly in certain locations. It’s now an absolutely outdated notion that hospitals need to be collocated, and going forward this is going to be ever more the case.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768926#Comment_121768926

I mean, right now its the same time to James' and Connolly from Rathfarnham and quicker to James' from Dundrum. This will obviously change at rush hour but its not like the M50 isn't regularly choked with traffic. But yes, southside near the M50 it is debatable.

Nowhere is good to drive to at rush hour. In an ideal world there would be more parking, but amply parking is not the primary factor in what makes a good hospital.

Also, and this keeps getting glossed over a lot, huge sections of people living in Dublin don't even own cars.

I'm not ignorant of the fact the location is not ideal. But such a place did not exist.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770266#Comment_121770266

It seemed to be ad hoc “planning”. “We need a BIG hospital, eh er well quite a big hospital, not 100% sure quite how big”. “We need it to have a b c d e f… services” “We’ll get an architect to draw a building that might do, modern architects like glass, so there’ll be plenty of glass” “We’ll then play it by ear as requirements might change… but eh, we’ve chosen a site we can’t really expand on…never mind”

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770318#Comment_121770318

Well, I think the amount of glass is so kids have as much light as possible in their rooms.

But, yes, by all accounts the planning was not done well and the tender going out before the spec was finalised seems like a mistake. This is where all the criticism seems fairly well deserved.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121769433#Comment_121769433

If the Motors forum teaches us anything, it's that the barstool is the font of all knowledge. 😁

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770393#Comment_121770393

The original idea is kids need a space that escapes them from the hospital. "Sensory and therapeutic respite" Usually a Garden. This has been mutated into roof gardens, hanging terraces, and courtyards..and lots of glass.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770393#Comment_121770393

So who was the project management firm in charge here?

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770266#Comment_121770266

Its large part of the problem. It's not the whole problem though. A complex design in a restricted site with existing water mains and drains. How much money did they spend on the mater proposal before redoing it all for effectively a site with all the same issues. Just a different constituency.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770298#Comment_121770298

I'm aware that many consultants work multiple clinics in different locations, different hospitals different days, even different counties different days.

Just the ones in NCH can't travel far from their house apparently. Maybe they don't realise theres a Luas.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770602#Comment_121770602

Agreed but a portion of the blame lies with whoever chose the site.

However once the site was chosen and that decision made, who were the PM team who proceeded without a finalised scope and detailed design, and bill of quantities?

Wanderer78

spiraling costs of major public works is common enough globally, its not just an irish problem, good ould corruption helps to.....

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770768#Comment_121770768

Yeah but when we do it we do it proper 😂

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770316#Comment_121770316

How the population of the hospital travel to the hospital is the only thing that relevant. Not how many people (who might not even have kids or ever travel to the hospital) have car.

The argument there is no perfect solution is not a argument to pick (arguably) the worst option. "There is no perfect car... so I'm using a Rolls Royce to learn to drive in..."

Usually driving (or travelling) against traffic, against congestion is advantageous.

None of it matters now. At this point €2+Billion in, horse is well and truly bolted. But the cost already staggering, has just instantly increased by 30% or so. I mean just wow. 500 MILLION to finish something they say is 92% complete. I mean how is 8% costing 500 million.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121771357#Comment_121771357

None of it matters now. At this point €2+Billion

Just on this point as I have seen the media report something similar 'over 2 billion'.

The ball park not the complete figure currently sits at 2.24 billion.

That 0.24 represents 240 million or almost quarter of a billion.

Every 0.01 is 10 million. If it goes up 2.44, doesn't look like a big deal but that's an extra 200 million.

These are eye watering amounts which I feel don't get the attention they deserve because they are decimalised.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121771400#Comment_121771400

Exactly. I mean these are staggering figures.

[Deleted User]

At some point in the future we'll have a tribunal (another €100+ million) into how this racket was allowed proceed.