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Scotland vs France

16781012

Comments

  • Posts: 1,167 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Show me where you have an image of that ball touching the line or the ground beyond the line.



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 43,821 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    why is that in question?

    the referee said the ball was held up.

    the ball cannot be held up if it is in the field of play, therefore the ball HAD to be over the line.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,517 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Can you explain how the ball couldnt have been touching the ground on/beyond the line, based on the images we all saw? The ball clearly was on the boot and then dropped off it....onto what? A stray choc-ice?

    Show me that same image you require but for every other try that was awarded the last two weekends?

    If your argument is that every other try is perfectly clear then I am going to disagree with you.

    Even Fickou's try, can you guarantee that the ball touched the ground and that it wasn't just his hand/arm on the ground before he slid into touch?

    Did anyone ask to check it?

    How about Sheehans try? No way the ref saw that amongst the pile of bodies but he blew and awarded anyway. In the below still you can see his arm out as he blows the whistle, no sign of the ball from his angle though, there are 2-3 Irish bodies in the way at least.

    image.png

    Or how about Lowe's try?

    image.png




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,704 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    I was sitting behind the posts for those two - in both cases you could clearly see the ball grounded from our viewing angle



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 748 ✭✭✭Dero


    The reverse angle showed the grounding quite clearly anyway. It's a bit disingenuous to post pictures of tries which had other angles explicitly showing the grounding. For the Scottish non-try, every angle was examined (and even more so since), and nothing conclusive was found. Like most, I think it was probably grounded, but there is not enough video evidence to overturn the on-field decision.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,517 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Sure, but the ref awarded it before any AR had a chance to comment. I have no issue with the try btw.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,517 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    The entire point is that the ref didnt look at ANY replay angles before awarding those tries!

    He also awarded the JGP try despite it clearly being knocked on, so obviously he didnt have a good view yet still awarded it in real time.

    If he can change his mind about the JGP try, why not the Scottish one?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 748 ✭✭✭Dero



    No, and he didn't look at any replays before calling held-up in the Scotland game either. He called it as he saw it live and neither himself nor the TMO subsequently found enough evidence to overturn it. The same applies to the Irish tries above, but it's a lot less dramatic because the tries were clearly scored. I'm pretty sure every try is checked in the background by the TMO and it would be called back if there was an issue - e.g. the disallowed Henshaw try.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,517 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    You mean the opposite angle to the referee who awarded it in real time, instantly after the ball was touched down?


    Please read my posts lads, I'm not arguing that these other examples are not tries, my point is that the ref awarded them when clearly he didnt and couldnt have seen the grounding.


    If the only avenue open once the Ref goes to the TMO is "Prove me wrong with 100% certainty" then the on field decisions should always go with the attacking team and should be that the try was scored unless something proves contrary.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,517 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    So there wasnt a great big Scottish hand on it to take it off the boot?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,517 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Yes, I know thats what happened, my point is that its a stupid law and that the BOD should go with the attacking team unless proven otherwise.

    "Is there any reason why I cannot award the try" Simple.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 748 ✭✭✭Dero


    I get what you're saying, but in this case the referee believed the ball was held up. Are you saying he should go against that belief and award the try anyway pending evidence to the contrary? Does that not neuter his on-field authority?



  • Posts: 1,167 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It moved backwards on the replay.

    Show the picture proof that the ball touched the line or the ground ahead of the line.

    It's a simple ask. If they have proof they can change on field, if not they can't



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 43,821 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Again, there was zero question as to whether the ball was in goal or not. You're trying to introduce a factor to the situation which was not there.

    The question was was there clear evidence that the ball wasn't held up, as per the referees decision. There wasn't enough clarity for the tmo to change the on field decision.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,202 ✭✭✭ersatz


    He may have seen a grounding if people in the stands saw it for those other tries. In the Scotland case no-one saw the grounding and no-one can say for certain that there isn't a hand underneath the ball in all the clips examined. Its unfortunate but no way anyone can say a try was definitely scored which is what's needed to overturn the onfield decision.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,628 ✭✭✭Augme


    I don't think the ref should be using inconclusive video to overrule himself though. He had the best position to see and was the closest one to the action.


    The ref felt the ball was held up. So he did feel there was a reason not to award the try, so doesn't seem like a question he should be asking in that scenario.



  • Posts: 1,167 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Grounding check means was it beyond the try line when touching the ground. It was held up in one position, then moved.

    The TMO has zero leeway there. They can not see a grounding after the movement



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,704 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    You’ve no idea what the referee did or didn’t see - we don’t have ref cam anymore!

    Either way, in both cases he saw enough to form the opinion a try was scored. And as the TMO didn’t have any evidence to show or even suggest that the referee was definitely incorrect in either case then the on-field decision didn’t even warrant a review.

    On Saturday, the referee saw enough in real time to believe the ball was held up. The TMO had enough to suggest there might be a problem; but not enough to show it was definitely incorrect. The referee’s role is to call the game as he/she sees it. That’s the fundamental principle across all levels of the game. So if it can’t be shown to be definitely incorrect then the on-field decision has to stand.


    Allowing referees to fudge making their initial decision because they can toss responsibility to the TMO undermines the role of the referee.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    There was multiple bodies piled up. There was no way of knowing if the ball came off the boot and who was moving it and how.


    Did a Scottish player push the ball carrier forward but with no control of the ball?



    As for the Irish tries, the AR for the Lowe try is perfectly placed, likewise the AR for Sheehans is too and they routinely would give a thumbs up to the ref to indicate they have a grounding.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,509 ✭✭✭Ben Bailey


    In addition to the 'soft' signal from the nearest AR, the Ref has the TMO in his earpiece. Just because we don't see or hear their confirmation doesn't mean it doesn't happen.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,517 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    He might have been closest but that doesnt mean the best angle, hence the TMO.

    It was obvious to me that the ref thought he was wrong during the replays and was about to award the try until the TMO went into the "I cant prove you wrong so you have to stick with your on field decision"

    But I gave multiple other scenarios where the ref awards the try without any ability to be sure of it but he does it anyway and assumes the TMO or AR will over rule if needed. Why not just make that the default behaviour? Whats wrong with "is there any reason I shouldnt award this try"?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,517 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Ah come on. You can clearly see from the stills that the ref has no view of the ball being grounded. The physically has no way of seeing the ball if there are bodies in front of him.

    Clearly yesterday he tossed responsibility to the TMO? HE should award the try unless its obviously not a try and let someone overrule him if he is clearly wrong, like he did for the examples I posted the stills from. He 100% had no way to see the ball grounded from his position. Probably they were grounded (and from other angles we can see that they were) but why use "probably" some times and not all times?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,517 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Sure, but not in the timeperiod between the balls being grounded and the ref blowing his whistle. (in the examples I posted)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,517 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    The ball didnt go forward, it moved sideways off the boot?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,509 ✭✭✭Ben Bailey


    'The TMO’s opinion was that the replays didn’t show clearly the ball being grounded; but they also didn’t show that it wasn’t, so where was it? It looked down to me, and no reasonable doubt existed to cancel out the try. Surely, these very tight situations should be treated in the same way as a penalty try, on the basis of probability. Common sense, dare I say.' - Owen Doyle in the Irish Times today

    Imho Doyle is hanging out TMO Brian McNiece & Ref Nic Berry to dry here.

    Maybe a Law change is needed to avoid these situations, but with the present Laws the officials had no choice.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,013 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    But the ref saw it held up. You want him to ignore what he saw and go with what might have happened.

    If the ref saw nothing then you might have a point but in this case he saw it held up.

    The Scottish player actually carrying the ball should have celebrated. You can see all the France players celebrate the ball held up and the Scottish players not celebrating. That definitely paints a picture in the refs mind.



  • Posts: 186 ✭✭ Tegan Wooden Vegetable


    This isn't even the Laws. Their decision is covered by the "Television Match Official TMO) Protocol" document. The first guiding principal of the protocol is that the referee remains the lead decision maker. That pretty much covers this situation. Once Nic Berry thought the ball was held up he'd made the only common sense decision available.

    No amount of cameras will give us the most accurate decisions possible without creating contentious outcomes like this.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭Yeah Right



    You can't see the line in the above photo, but it's obvious from this shot that it was grounded and there was a separate shot that showed this was beyond the try line. Not sure if both criteria have to be satisfied in the same image, but that's a stupid law if that's the case. One showing the position and one showing the grounding should be enough.

    The big issue is the ref bottled it and sent it to the TMO, who in turn bottled it right back and left it up to the ref. You can listen back to their conversation from around the end of the 82nd minute mark.

    Ref: "there is the ball on the ground"

    TMO: "I'm just going to rock and roll it for you, stand by"

    Ref: "So you're saying the ball was initially on the foot and then it was grounded in goal. So I need to change my original decision?

    TMO: Yes........

    Ref: ...............pause.......

    TMO: Let me just check if I can clearly see the ball on the ground.....


    If we'd been denied like this against NZ in the World Cup, we'd still be talking about it months later. Same will happen if we're denied a grand slam over something similar.



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