Scotland vs France

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767580#Comment_121767580

I see you haven't been reading l'équipe or Stuff

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767541#Comment_121767541

The failing here and maybe it's a SH thing, is that Berry transferred all decision making to the TMO. He made no comment on viewing the replays himself, even after the TMO stating it was grounded and 'rock and rolling' the footage for Berry himself to see. We all know how it's usually done, ref calls for the replays on the big screen, watches them, says so this is what i see and i'm making x decision do you concur TMO?

None of this happened, even when the footage was cued up for him Berry seemed to have no interest in watching or commenting, completely different to both the Henshaw and JGP situations.

I'm not a fan of Berry, during the WC he told TMO Tom Foley to stop interacting with him unless it was clear and obvious, he seems to think that the job of the ref and TMO are separate entities rather than a joint exercise.

Yeah_Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767796#Comment_121767796

No. What did they have to say?

ersatz

It's fairly pathetic to see the Scottish Union appealing to 6N to admit the ref got it wrong given that it won't change the outcome. I much prefer to see coaches and teams take the loss and look at what they can actually control. Scotland lay down and pissed about when they were ahead thinking they had the match won. That showed both an arrogance and a lack of confidence. arrogance in taking it for granted that France weren't;t good for another score and a lack if confidence in failing to play like the best form of defence is attack the you are aead and the clock is running down. They'll never win a championship with that mindset.

Burkie1203

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768990#Comment_121768990

Townsend etc have always banged the drum about Scotland playing attractive rugby etc, and in the netflix doc he banged the drum about them being fitter then everyone.

But then the reality is he cannot get them to produce that when it matters (ie in a meaningful game) and its been that way for most of his tenure.

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768904#Comment_121768904

The French still going on about BOK, Etzebeth and Kolbe (and of course the anglo-saxon consipiracy) cheating them out of a WC to this day. NZ commenters moaning incessantly about the difference in treatment of Cane and Kolisi.

Buer

I think the criticism of Scotland is largely unfair.

They have made their communication through the normal, official channels available. Many teams provide similar feedback seeking clarification on issues or queries around a game. I don't think this communication is going outside of that but it is being represented as such.

In relation to their misgivings, we'd be apoplectic if it was us. The TMO clearly said the ball was on the ground. The direct quote was "The ball is held up for now.....and there is the ball on the ground."

Berry then confirms this back to the TMO saying "....it's grounded in goal so I can change my onfield decision?"

The TMO then appears to be flustered and rethinks the situation and backtracks on his statement "I....I need to go back on that angle to see if I can clearly see the ball on the ground".

The fact that you can see the ball on the ground is secondary to the issue here. The TMO makes a clear statement before changing it. He shouldn't be lynched over it but it's poor communication and the situation clearly affected him.

Scotland obviously know that it's not going to make any difference to the result but there's no harm in raising the issue to try and ensure that TMOs are more careful in their wording in future.

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121769728#Comment_121769728

I think the criticism of Scotland is very fair. They made their comments through the normal channel and then ran to the media and told them and provided direct quotes from "sources". It seems to just another excuse for Mcgregor to excuse his failures as a Head Coach. Also, AFAIK teams ask for clarification on decisions, they don't ask for public apologies or that the error is publicly acknowledged by World Rugby.

Burkie1203

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121769728#Comment_121769728

Scotland should have kept their mouths shut and just asked in private.

Also, the TMO says the ball was on the ground but he cannot say it was on or over the try line and its feasible in that moment of play that the Scotland player had tried to pull the ball back to keep the play going instead of allowing it go dead. The ball is on a boot on the try line before it was moved but nobody can be certain where it touched the ground

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121769755#Comment_121769755

Ireland have leaked in the past about supposed private statements to them from WR that decisions were actually wrong. I'm amazed anyone thinks any team would handle this differently.

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770133#Comment_121770133

Every other team has handked this differently though. I can't ever remember any other team demanding World Rugby give a public apology for an error made in a game. I mean, given what happened in the recent World Cup it didn't happen then AFAIK so for a team to do for a 6 nations match seems absolutely ridiculous.

Buer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121769767#Comment_121769767

TMO's issue was the ball being on the ground and said that. The referee would have ruled it as short if that was the case. He was ruling that it was held up.

clsmooth

No harm with Scotland raising this issue and forcing World Rugby act. It’s for the good of the game. And it’s not the first time in this 6 nations that a poor decision seems to have been given due to the referee’s wording.

Imagine if we had lost to France in the last play, by the highly suspect try they were awarded earlier in the game, due to the ref saying on field decision ‘try’ therefore asking the TMO to show definitive proof that it wasn’t a score. We’d have been rightly apoplectic too.

This needs to tightened up. It’s not right that we seem to be arriving at wrong decisions due referring teams following the protocols. They’re being put in an incredibly unfair position.

Burkie1203

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770178#Comment_121770178

The ref called what he has seen, the TMO said the ball was grounded, but he could not have definitely said it was grounded on or over the try line given the French boot was literally straddling the line.

Looking at it again, the ref appears to have called held up before it was moved off the foot

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770174#Comment_121770174

"The dialogue between the referee and the TMO made no sense," said a source close to the situation.

The SRU questions the decision and the message it sends. With the arrival of Netflix and the creation of their fly-on-the-wall series, Full Contact, rugby is attempting to expand its traditional fanbase and appeal to new audiences.

The confusion at the end of the game on Saturday may confuse people that the game is trying to reach, said the source.

"There is a need for lessons being learned so that it never happens again. This is not about Scottish Rugby being belligerent."

This is the only quote I have seen from a "source" in the few articles I read. There is nothing particularly wrong with this.

Townsend's comments are absolutely fine as well

Reiterating his belief that replacement lock Sam Skinner had grounded the ball on the try line after it was initially held up on the leg of Yoram Moefana, Townsend said: “The TMO influenced the referee more [with the final call]. They have quite a big screen in that corner, so it should be the referee that decides.

“I don’t think I am being biased here to say the ball was put on the try line, I think everybody sees that. It’s how we get to the correct decision. If it was held up and we’re here going that we’re gutted to have been held up to win a game, that would have been the right decision. But for us it clearly wasn’t the right decision that they came to at the end.

“It doesn’t really matter. That game moves on. We’ll get feedback, we do regularly, and that’ll be one of some incidents we’ll ask for clarification on, but it doesn’t change the outcome, unfortunately.”

Ireland have come out in the past and said "WR told us that the ref got it wrong" and that's just as bad.

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121769755#Comment_121769755

Gregor McGregor, teh head coach?

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770333#Comment_121770333

We will agree to disagree, I think demanding a public apology for an error from the governing body is well out of order. And doing it for a situation where the decision reached was correct is even more ridiculous.

I don't think that's as bad myself, unless they are specifically told not to divulge comments.

Podge_irl

Maybe the reporting has been updated, but I am not seeing anywhere that they "demanded an apology".

Dave_The_Sheep

Ireland have come out in the past and said "WR told us that the ref got it wrong" and that's just as bad.

I don't care too much about this whole furore, but just on this; no, it's not. Because that was done after the fact without the external public pressure put on to influence the decision. This demanding of a public apology before WR have said anything about it is putting pressure on externally and publicly, howevert his leaked. Situations aren't the same.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770664#Comment_121770664

What "decision"? I mean nothing is going to change. And again, I haven't seen this demand for a public apology, but maybe I just couldn't find it.

It's all undermining the refs one way or another and also an attempt to deflect blame. I'm not arguing they are the same, but they are similar.

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770663#Comment_121770663

This where I read it. It's either described as an apology or a public admission that an error was made depending on which report one reads. Even if it's just the second they want, while not as bad as the first, I still don't think they should be doing it and I can't remember when that's happened before either. Still confused as to why Scotland feel they are worthy of special treatment.

https://www.planetrugby.com/news/world-rugby-have-no-plans-to-meet-scotlands-apology-demands

Buer

The word apology is in title but doesn't feature elsewhere PR is fairly clickbait at this stage.

The story of the communication to WR was broken by Tom English with the BBC who claimed that the SRU had asked for World Rugby to clarify and acknowledge an error was made. He had no actual formal source aside from an unnamed source "close to the situation" who provided the below quotes:

"The dialogue between the referee and the TMO made no sense," said a source close to the situation.

"There is a need for lessons being learned so that it never happens again. This is not about Scottish Rugby being belligerent."

Dave_The_Sheep

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770813#Comment_121770813

I suspect the reporting has changed, I'm not going to search too much though - as you say I'm not finding it now. Also entirely possible I may also be mistaken based on headlines from titles (I don't read PR, so it's not them I saw it on). You can treat it as "demanding admission of an error though" and I'll stick by that with what I'm saying.

By decision, badly worded on my part given what we're talking about, I mean the decision by WR to admit a mistake was made or that the ref got something wrong. Not the call on the pitch, obviously that's not going to change.

They're similar, sure, no problems agreeing there. I'm merely pointing out there's a difference in degree. So I suppose we're broadly in agreement, just approaching from opposite sides maybe.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121771022#Comment_121771022

I don't think you are mistaken, as I think I remember reading something similar but I can't find it anywhere now. Even the article linked earlier in the thread has changed. I suspect basically Scotland got done dirty a bit with the early reporting.

I am all for hating on Scotland normally, I just think this is a lesson in poor reporting more than anything grossly different from what other teams would do. I still think its funny they tried to sue a typhoon like.

ersatz

Fair enough Podge, though Im partial to the explanation that for the Scotland team pushing blame for the French loss off to officiating is one way for the coaches to pick them up off the floor after two frankly disastrous weekends of rugby. The second half capitulation against Wales followed by throwing away the French match can't be easy to wish away or even explain. There is something up when a team with that quality can't get the job done against teams they should put to the sword. And in terms of building, if ever there was a year when Scotland might have realistically expected to come in first or second this is it, yet they find themselves in a vulnerable third position with Ireland and England to come.

tmc1963

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770663#Comment_121770663

They didn't apparently - presumably media hysteria

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121772602#Comment_121772602

Regardless of how the first game was won in the end, the fact is that they were denied being 2/2 by a decision that is a terrible look for rugby.

I am pretty sure a stronger ref like Barnes would have quickly jumped on the TMO's statement that the ball was on the ground and awarded the try based on what he could see on the screen with his own eyes.

Burkie1203

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121780667#Comment_121780667

There was a high tackle on a wales player in Rd1 missed in the last sequence. Think Scotland have had some good fortune too

tmc1963

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121780694#Comment_121780694

Really?

Not heard that or read about it in numerous articles so it's clearly not an issue.

Just saw Andrea Piardi in the Connacht match show Berry what he should have done - would have saved a lot of angst!