Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Scotland vs France

Options
1…6791112

Comments

  • Options
    #242
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,355 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121751477#Comment_121751477

    Mod: Two week rugby forum ban.



  • Options
    #243
    Clo-Clo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,971 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    In terms of Ben Healy, I guess we can discuss?

    He has zero minutes and from reports in England, Scotland went after Northamptons Fin Smith, seemingly offering him a quick route into the first team

    His start in Edinburgh has gone well but not really from an international point of view and I don't see them dropping the captain anytime soon as he is playing well



  • Options
    #244
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,958 ✭✭✭✭phog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121751519#Comment_121751519

    Ben Healy has played international rugby, he played in the last RWC.

    That wouldn't have happened if he stayed in Ireland

    As an aside and I'm not aiming this at you but I said earlier today, in another thread, it's really not up to a fan on a rugby forum somewhere to decide if his decision is correct or not, only the individual themselves will know the full facts.



  • Options
    #245
    Clo-Clo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,971 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121751799#Comment_121751799

    I wasn't saying the decision was good or bad, I would like to see him been a success. Honestly if I was in his position I would have moved as well.

    It's a pity he isn't get minutes is my point and if Scotland are really after other 10's it seems the bright lights of moving to other countries might nt be all that greener



  • Options
    #246
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,958 ✭✭✭✭phog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121751827#Comment_121751827


    I wasn't saying the decision was good or bad

    That's why I specifically said it wasn't aimed at you.

    Tbh, I think most Irish rugby fans would like to see him a success. Obviously, they will be some who won't but that's human nature.

    Scotland are like every other country, they want what's best for them.

    A few months ago, the second in line (at outhalf ) in Ireland was dropped like a hot potato, next year, he'll be playing his rugby in France.

    There are a high number of players with one international cap, I'm sure that look back at that cap with pride.



  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #247
    Clo-Clo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,971 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121751868#Comment_121751868

    He wasn't dropped like a hot potato, I love Joey but he was really give more chances than most player to step up and it just never really happened. Especially post 2019

    The number of games for Ireland he was put into the team and not sure when he really shone, one of his best performance I seen in last few years was when he moved to 15 and H Byrne was 10 for Ireland v Argie.

    In terms of players getting one cap, honestly I think the number of players that are up to international standard is limited, Ireland testing most players is great because you get the chance. Have we seen any of these 1 cap players been a huge miss for Ireland?



  • Options
    #248
    Norrie Rugger Head
    Registered Users Posts: 672 ✭✭✭Norrie Rugger Head


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121751900#Comment_121751900

    His best you've seen was at 15?

    Because he was, is, and will be best suited to 15. IRFU were so worried about Sexton having no backup, a few years back, that they sacrificed a very talented 15 to try to mould him to a 10. They filled his head with a starting berth in Munster and being the heir apparent to the international position.

    He was a stop gap to the suits, and they used him up

    ⛥ ̸̱̼̞͛̀̓̈́͘#C̶̼̭͕̎̿͝R̶̦̮̜̃̓͌O̶̬͙̓͝W̸̜̥͈̐̾͐Ṋ̵̲͔̫̽̎̚͠ͅT̸͓͒͐H̵͔͠È̶̖̳̘͍͓̂W̴̢̋̈͒͛̋I̶͕͑͠T̵̻͈̜͂̇Č̵̤̟̑̾̂̽H̸̰̺̏̓ ̴̜̗̝̱̹͛́̊̒͝⛥



  • Options
    #249
    Dubinusa
    Registered Users Posts: 8,303 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    I was disappointed to see Healy leave. He's still young and is at a stage of his career where he might take off and be really good. I'd have him at out half over Joey. I hope he goes well over in Scotland, except v Ireland and the provinces.



  • Options
    #250
    kowloonkev
    Registered Users Posts: 2,193 ✭✭✭kowloonkev


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121750792#Comment_121750792

    I totally get what you are saying. On the one hand it sounded like the referee actually wanted the TMO to direct him to overturn it. I think he felt that having seen it again it was a try. Then it became a mess.

    However, if a referee was allowed to not make an on field decision then I think it doesn't look right. People would trust their instincts to make the call more so than allowing a referee to study the footage until he came to the decision he wanted to. Fans would have more reason to question referee neutrality in my opinion.



  • Options
    #251
    bingobango12
    Registered Users Posts: 340 ✭✭bingobango12


    Why would any Irish fan care about Ben Healy anymore? He is a good/grand outhalf, that now plays for Scotland. If he was still in Ireland he would be behind Crowley and R. Byrne. Probably behind Prendergast in 2 years aswell so again, wouldn’t be in the Irish squads.

    I fail to see how what the point of discussing him is.



  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #252
    sioda
    Registered Users Posts: 4,471 ✭✭✭sioda


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121752589#Comment_121752589

    Your could say that about many players Dillane, Farrell, Jackson, Goggin, JJ pre Connacht are just a few which many Irish fans would still keep an eye on when they are playing outside Ireland

    Healy is unique as he went to find an international cap elsewhere. Scotland are too dependent on Russell and Healy is an unknown he could have made the difference yesterday. And he would imho slotted that drop goal



  • Options
    #253
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,958 ✭✭✭✭phog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121752589#Comment_121752589

    I fail to see how what the point of discussing him is.

    You write this just after you write a paragraph on him 🙄



  • Options
    #254
    OldRio
    Registered Users Posts: 5,946 ✭✭✭OldRio


    Anyway...... The thread title is Scotland v France. Uninspiring muck. The French attack was basically one off runners bulldozing it up the middle.



  • Options
    #255
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,293 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121752508#Comment_121752508

    It can be an on field decision/ A referee can use their discretion just like anyone else and sometimes (like yesterdays situation) make a decision that he/she 'just doesn't know - can't tell and need the tech.

    It's a decision to be fair and do the right thing.



  • Options
    #256
    standardg60
    Registered Users Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭standardg60


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121750605#Comment_121750605

    The TMO was asked about grounding, you're adding two questions that were neither asked or discussed.

    The TMO literally says it's grounded, Berry is about to change his decision based on that, before the TMO stutters and says he's going to look again. For me if Berry had agreed and said he saw the grounding too the TMO wouldn't have interjected, but Berry put it all on the TMO.

    https://youtu.be/NB0clwmNz-o?si=BrmA4hgQr5g0mVyA




  • Options
    #257
    Dave_The_Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 7,340 ✭✭✭Dave_The_Sheep


    That image doesn't show grounding.


    (And for the record, I think it's pretty clear the ball was grounded on or over the line, but the whole point of the discussion is that there isn't an angle that definitively shows this. There's an angle that shows it grounded but not by whom, there's an angle that shows it over the line but you can't see the grounding, but they're not the same angle and that's the problem)



  • Options
    #258
    Augme
    Registered Users Posts: 5,335 ✭✭✭Augme


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121752910#Comment_121752910

    The problem is the TMO doesn't know where the ball is grounded or if it was grounded because it was dropped. The TMO should have stated that while he feels it was grounded, he doesn't have conclusive video evidence that it was grounded on or over the try line.



  • Options
    #259
    standardg60
    Registered Users Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭standardg60


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121752933#Comment_121752933

    Yes I agree he could or should have stated that, it was a mess all round and Berry should have been more opinionated.



  • Options
    #260
    Augme
    Registered Users Posts: 5,335 ✭✭✭Augme


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121752948#Comment_121752948

    It was a bit of a mess, which I was surprised at. I would have thought the first think you'd be taught as a TMO in situations like this is the concept of clear evidence of the ball being grounded on or over the line. I wonder if the TMO got a word from someone he was sitting with about needing clear evidence. His change of mind was fairly sudden, or maybe it just dawned on him.



  • Options
    #261
    Cluedo Monopoly
    Registered Users Posts: 8,816 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121752910#Comment_121752910

    Yep, TMO seemed to change his mind and that was the biggest mistake. We were all convinced at one point that the try would be awarded. Then he pulled back after watching the same footage. Stick to your decision TMO.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #262
    tmc1963
    Registered Users Posts: 178 ✭✭tmc1963


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121753249#Comment_121753249

    Especially when he had actually reached the right decision to award it.



  • Options
    #263
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,121 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Does the ref not often change his mind based on replays on the screens, without the TMO getting involved or am I imagining it?

    Didn't it happen last night for JGP's "try" at the death?



  • Options
    #264
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,121 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    I think "benefit of the doubt" should kick in here, team going forward should deffo get BOTD in situations like this.

    Its also shows how crap the current "held up" laws are. You shouldn't lose possession in situations like this IMO.



  • Options
    #265
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,958 ✭✭✭✭phog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758740#Comment_121758740

    The ref blew the whistle and said "held up". The TV images that we see don't stop at when the whistle was blown, we don't know who grounded the ball, when was it grounded, was it over the line, was there double movement, was there a knock on. Look, if it happened to my team I'd be annoyed but once the ref said "held up" the TMO and the Ref had to have a clear and obvious try to award it.



  • Options
    #266
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,229 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121759058#Comment_121759058

    i get where youre coming from with this, and you are 100% correct, but i have a problem that the TMO never goes back to the ref and says:

    "are you happy that: (1) the ball carrier hasnt been stripped; (2) there ball was always over the line"

    (the other two of "was there a knock on / double movement" is actually only something the TMO can confirm under question by the referee and must be clearly evident ie you have to reverse your on field try decision because there was a knock on / double movement)

    so dealing with the former two questions, why cant the TMO ask those questions in the deliberation? Hey Nic, i can see the ball on the ground, but can you confirm that the ball carrier never lost possession (query 1) and the placing of the ball was never short (query 2)

    as to when the whistle was blown, its my understanding they can sync up all replays so that any off shot action can be assessed in real time

    so rather than the TMO using the excuse, well i cant be sure that ball is over / on the line or whether the ball carrier was striped and a defender grounded, the referee can still remain the arbiter of those questions.

    im kinda asking this hypothetically rather than at anyone specifically. Why doesn't the conversation run to cover these scenarios



  • Options
    #267
    Ben Bailey
    Registered Users Posts: 567 ✭✭✭Ben Bailey


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121759173#Comment_121759173

    This is a very fair point.

    Contrast this 'On Field Try / No Try' protocol with the Foul Play protocol where the Referee asks his officials team, incl TMO if they agree (I'm aware they seldom don't concur) having gone through a much lengthier assessment.



  • Options
    #268
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,121 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    But didnt the ref overrule himself for the JGP try for Ireland?

    He saw the replay and it was clearly lost while grounding. If he can change his mind by looking at a TV screen, why cant he not change his mind just because he has asked the TMO?

    If the TMO says "nothing 100% obvious" but the ref feels that on reflection, his initial call was wrong, then surely he should be allowed to change it. Its a ridiculous hole in the laws if he can only change his mind as long as he doesnt bring in the TMO.



  • Options
    #269
    Augme
    Registered Users Posts: 5,335 ✭✭✭Augme


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121759721#Comment_121759721

    Does the ref not also need clear and obvious evidence to overrule themselves when looking at the video evidence? I don't know if going down the road of letting the ref change their mind "on reflection" or based on probability is good for the game.



  • Options
    #270
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,958 ✭✭✭✭phog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121759721#Comment_121759721

    He can change his mind but he's looking at a big screen from afar, it's easier to see an obvious knock on than any of the things I listed that might have happened or the touch down happening after the whistle had gone.

    I agree with Syd, the conversation between the two of them could have been better but that doesn't mean they made the incorrect decision



  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #271
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,121 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121759765#Comment_121759765

    He doesn't need anything external to overrule himself.

    As for not being good for the game, the match was already paused while this went on, IMO awarding the "obvious" try is better for the game than being correct on a laws technicality.

    Do you think the ref would have asked for a reason NOT to award the try had he seen the replay before asking the TMO? Based on the conversation they had, I think the answer to that is clearly "YES!" so, for me, that makes the decision wrong.



Advertisement