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Transport Aircraft

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,869 ✭✭✭EchoIndia


    Yes, the article actually gets it right further down in the text.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,370 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    To be fair, its an accounting issue. All assets have notional values, which depreciates with time. If the repair cost exceeds the notional value, that repair will not be approved.

    Such was the case with the Dauphin. They had 5 screen EFIS using CRT screens. By 2000, all similar types were using LCD screens, as the CRT was heavier and generated more heat. A costly upgrade was necessary, and in Government terms, beyond economical repair. When we disposed of them, the new owner (private company) did a full rebuild and inspection including avionics. They sold them to a military client for a similar cost as a newbuild 365F.

    What the new owner got, in effect, was Our grandfathers axe, with a replacement handle and newly sharpened head. Military owners cannot afford this luxury, when newbuilds are available at similar cost.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,909 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Not just military, I mean look at airliners, where every investment/repair is judged against the replacement costs and can mean new planes getting broken up fairly young.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,690 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Have the two 235s been sold or traded in ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,370 ✭✭✭Dohvolle




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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,370 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    That's true. Nobody expected Knock Airport would become home to some A380 Airliners awaiting disposal so soon after their introduction.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    I wonder what they got for them? The airframes must be quite tired.



  • Registered Users Posts: 593 ✭✭✭sully2010


    Agreed. It was scandalous that it was sold for €400k, including a lot of spare parts. They refurbished the interior in 2010, it looks brand new - https://centraljets.com/plane/N297PJ-2994 How much did they spend on that only to sell it for peanuts 5 years later. Absolute incompetence.

    Journey aviation had it insured soon after for $5m and I'll bet they paid nowhere near what the government were quoted for repairs. Why did they always have to get the highest quotes for maintenance direct from Gulfstream, plenty of cheaper maintenance facilities around. I'll bet they took what Gulfstream quoted and left it at that without getting 2nd and 3rd opinions.

    She's still happily flying around as N297PJ with the green stripe now red. Canada ran their Government A310 into the ground and only retired it last year at 36 years old, replaced with a second hand A330. If there's a will to maintain there's a way.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,370 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Canada has a history of flying their military aircraft into the ground. Sometimes Literally. Their Seakings started falling from the sky long after they were past sell by date. The F/A 18s are kept flying only because of spares that cam from the RAAF. They were using CC108 Carabou up to very recently, even though it was old when it was used in Vietnam.



  • Registered Users Posts: 593 ✭✭✭sully2010


    Nothing wrong with that though? Air force one is 36 years old, the French have some very old VIP jets. The GIV clearly had plenty of life left in it, plus a ton of spare parts. At a minimum shop around for the best quotes to repair the landing gear and sell it for what it was worth, which most definitely was not €400k. The landing gear issues which forced the sale I believe were corrosion related, so why were they leaving it outside too often in such a humid climate and probably a humid non climate controlled hanger?

    Journey aviation were laughing all the way to the bank, new interior, full Gulfstream maintenance history, most likely very low cycles compared to charter GIV's, happy days.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,869 ✭✭✭EchoIndia


    The RCAF retired its DHC-4 Caribous in 1971 and replaced them with DHC-5 (CC-115) Buffalos. Yes, the last of these were retired only two years ago. The replacement in the domestic SAR role, the CC-295, is not expected to achieve IOC until 2025/6, of course. 😮



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,690 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Will Airbus strip them for parts or sale them on?



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,945 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Who cares at this point.

    There will be some economic value in it for Airbus, or else they wouldn't have accepted a trade-in deal.

    But its somebody else's issue now. The Air Corps only cares about getting the 295s worked up, fully crewed, and operating at their optimum capability.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,869 ✭✭✭EchoIndia


    CASA 235 serial 252 was seen running engines at Shannon this week, so maybe being got ready to leave.



  • Registered Users Posts: 300 ✭✭tippilot


    Re notional/residual values...

    This has relevance if you are a business whose only goal is profit. Residual value has very little relevance to the Air Corps.

    Accountants have no place in military decision making where the only metric should be capability and whether or not it has been replaced.

    The GIV work was a pittance in monetary terms but the loss of capability is felt to this day. Purely political optics that suited the austerity mood music of the time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,909 ✭✭✭sparky42


    And yet accountancy is relevant to military matters, and that’s globally. We aren’t the only ones who have given up capabilities or gapped them because “Finance says No”.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,370 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Use of the G4 was badly managed and marketed from the outset. It was introduced by one of Ireland's most corrupt political leaders, known to have been spending £16000 buying designer shirts (at £300 a week, more than double the average industrial weekly wage at the time) while at the same time telling the men and women of the state to "tighten their belts" as we experienced record unemployment, and the worst recession to hit the state in its history. It was reported the aircraft would be using his own design cues and preferences in the internal furnishings and trim.

    Its troubles came about when the state was governed by an equally corrupt politician, who claimed to a tribunal that he did not have a bank account while minister for Finance, had won big on the horses, got large loans from friends that he never had to pay back and generally was seen jetting around the world to visit foreign leaders, with his long term partner in tow, at the states expense.

    Now he has the cheek to suggest this lavish aircraft, to which no other taxpayer seems to have the use of, is "falling apart", and needs to be replaced for something larger, in the A319 B737 size?

    The whole thing was badly reported from the outset. The latter Taoiseach should not have been giving his uneducated opinion on it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,945 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    The whole western World right there.

    And they will pay now for the false economy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,370 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Purchasing equipment just because a general demands it is not good practice either.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,945 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Failure of the civil authority to keep up with geopolitical developments over the long-term, and provide the generals with the equipment for those tasks that they will suddenly and very quickly demand of them, is the worst practice of all.

    That is clearly evident in our nearest neighbour, and many other NATO / western aligned States.

    I was recently reading a comparison of the Order of Battle of the Royal Navy in 1982, when it came to forming the 127 ship strong Falklands Task Force (with the RFA and merchant requisitions) and today.

    The comparison is alarming.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,909 ✭✭✭sparky42


    I think its more complicated than that imo, I mean at least some of the hulls the RN had for that were "marginal" in terms of capability, there's not any real chance the RN would have got funding for a like for like number replacement, even perhaps at the Cold War budgets let alone post Cold War. For the most part the West is suffering from the cuts post Cold War and in many cases trying to operate major wars (Iraq/Afghanistan) with relative peacetime budgets. Or just really really bad procurement choices (looking at you Germany).



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,690 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    I see in the article below from Nov 23 the unwanted UK H135s have been sold . Any chance they are on the way here?


    https://www.helihub.com/2023/11/17/uk-military-to-sell-five-surplus-airbus-h135s/



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,909 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Are we looking for extra 135s? Thought the suggestion was for two more for the 139 tasking before they all got replaced?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,116 ✭✭✭Psychlops




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,370 ✭✭✭Dohvolle




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,909 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Maybe the department and their colleagues in Finance should have progressed the replacement project a little bit sooner before now? Or paid for it to be taken out of service and rebuilt if they weren't willing to replace it?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,690 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Have to say i like the Air Corps GOC responce to the department

    Brigadier General Rory O’Connor wrote: “I have to admit, I don’t recollect that being a direct task coming out of the meeting, but I’ll look after that in accordance with the timeline.” 



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,945 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Its more than a bit rich for Department of Defence officials to be behaving, in correspondence, as if the procurement of new government jets isn't entirely 100% their responsibility; in terms of penning the business case, securing capital from DPER, and conducting the procurement process efficiently and economically.

    In fact, if I were the GOC, I'd be lifting the phone to the Sec Gen, and asking her to pass on a message to the pencil-neck who sent that correspondence; that if he or she doesn't catch themselves on, that I'd be putting my fist down their neck, turning them inside-out and flying them as a windsock at Baldonnell.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,690 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Some updates from defence committee last week. Of note the Two 235s are still in shannon with no plans yet from them. They are waiting on a report to tell them what to di with them.




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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,869 ✭✭✭EchoIndia


    Not entirely correct. One CN235 is in Shannon, the other is in Seville. Deputy Berry also said they'd been retired some years back, which is plainly incorrect also.



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