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Transport Aircraft

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,444 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Leonardo just delivered the first 2 of 32 AW149s to Poland fifteen months after the order was placed.

    It can be done if you don't fuch around the contractor. We have a long history of being silly buggers.

    If you don't believe me, once upon a time the cavalry corps wanted to replace its fleet of various makes and models of off road motorcycles.

    Initial efforts hit a huge stumbling block when the Yamaha provided for evaluation was driven without oil in the gearbox. It seems those given the job of testing in D/Transport were unaware that 4 strokes need oil too, and thought the full coolant bottle was an oil reservoir. Yamaha never shared their wares here again, even though their XS400 continued in service long after their best before date.

    KTM, who are famous for their off road motorcycles in international competition, offered their LC4 400, in the early 2000s, specially militarised, with hard luggage, and green as standard. ARW had been using motorcycles also, and were keen to get in on the action. MPs were invited, but wanted to play traffic cops, and demanded road bikes with blue lights instead. (KTM did a blue light option).

    KTM brought one of the bikes to Ireland, for evaluation. Everyone with a 154 agreed it was perfect for the Cav role, and the ARW were particularly pleased.

    D/Cav went to D/Transport (who look after these things) seeking to place an order. DoD got involved then, contacted KTM.

    "We'd like to buy some of those motorbikey things please".

    "Great, we can't wait to get involved, there are so many options that would suit your requirements in all areas. How many will you need?

    "six initially, followed by a further 12 once those bikes have been accepted into service"

    "Wow thanks, thats great, we were not expecting that. Six hundred it is."

    "you misunderstand us, we mean six as in a half dozen."

    "Our production line makes a wide range of types, we cannot rejig a line for just six! The Netherlands Have over 100, Germany Has something similar, we can't open a production line for a batch of less than 40."

    "no deal so, we just bought 40 Deauvilles for ceremonial, can't be buying another 40 bikes the public will never see"

    "OK then. Anyway must dash, Red Bull racing want to buy a batch of LC4 for their Dakar teams. They haven't even asked for an estimate. Bye now."



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,749 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    An the Poles Leonardos will be carrying a serious punch as well



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,749 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    The UK are to buy H145s would they not just upgrade the ones they have in storage rather than but new ones?




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,944 ✭✭✭sparky42


    How much wear and tear have the existing ones had? Interesting though for the NMH project, given both its cuts and delays.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,973 ✭✭✭EchoIndia


    The UK MFTS has seven H145s, called "Jupiter HT.1" in UK service. None are in storage. Source: https://www.scramble.nl/database/military/uk

    The UK also uses H135s, called the Juno, for training. Also, five civil-registered H135s are stored at RAF Shawbury. Those may be the ones you had in mind.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,973 ✭✭✭EchoIndia


    Interesting to see a French Air Force Dassault Falcon 900 visiting Dublin today that was built in 1985 and delivered to the French military in November 1987. By contrast, the Irish G-IV was delivered in December 1991 and disposed of in January 2015.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,444 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    I imagine the contract terms for Dassault, a French Company, are very favourable towards keeping this particular aircraft airworthy and flyable at any cost.

    Or else.

    We have no such luxury.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,285 ✭✭✭source


    I would also imagine that, given the size of the French Air Force and the large number of air frames they have at their disposal, that this aircraft doesn't have anywhere near the hours on it that our G-IV had.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,973 ✭✭✭EchoIndia


    We don't know that one way or the other. They currently have two Falcon 900s and two Falcon 7Xs in the VIP unit - obviously they have larger types too. Truth is that the French get good value out of their transport aircraft - the Nord 262, Transall and Falcon 20 are all types that they operated for decades, until the end of their useful lives. No doubt this does cost money but it also shows a willingness to spend the money required to keep aircraft flying rather than deem them prematurely to have reached the end of their useful life.

    The former Irish G-IV remains active in the USA, now with Phoenix Air, who amongst other activities do contract work for the US Government, so presumably it is not yet finished flying.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,444 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    You miss my point. This is French Government displaying French made aircraft to the world. "Buy from us, you'll get value for your money".

    To Gulfstream or Lear, we are just another small client.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,973 ✭✭✭EchoIndia



    No disagreement on your second point. The French, with their aircraft-manufacturing industry, no doubt have a policy of buying French whenever possible. However I think the global success of the Dassault Falcon family is built primarily on the fact that these are very capable aircraft and that new models have continued to be developed, over sixty years or so.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,444 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Tender out for new Ministerial transport aircraft. 10 passenger minimum and 4000nm range (with 8 pax plus luggage). Takes a lot of types out of the equation straight away.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,101 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Dassault Falcon would just about do it. Especially the new model 10x



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,749 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    So what's the chances when they get rid of the current learjet it will find a new lease of life and fly on with someone else?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,944 ✭✭✭sparky42




  • Registered Users Posts: 26 chimp77


    Seen one of the CN 235's on the descent into Baldonnel earlier, is one or both of them still being used since the arrival of the 295s?

    Must be getting cramped out there with four Casas??



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,944 ✭✭✭sparky42




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,444 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Its a no brainer, but the new owner will have the deep pockets required to get big maint done my main contractor, instead of hoping the line techies will pull yet another miracle like the Lear at present. It enjoys long holidays alongside the Garda Offender in foreign workshops apparently.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,749 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Very quick turn around for the Tender with Mid December. The way its worded someone could offer an A320 or similar. The lack of media coverage so far they should have tendered for a another 3 casas



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,444 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Yes I was also impressed with the short lead time. It's almost as if the potential bidders already know what's expected, and just need to get the bids in. That means for an early 2024 decision.

    Being honest, this has been on the boil for months now, if not longer. Ever since the taoiseach/tainiste had to get a chartered jet home because no other aircraft was available.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,101 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Wonder who is on the bidders list? Will it be new or second hand? One of the smaller Embraer planes like an E175 might be a good fit....



  • Registered Users Posts: 300 ✭✭tippilot


    The tender, on initial viewing is not as tightly written as recent previous tenders that had a preferred outcome in mind. But look a bit closer...

    The requirement for a new aircraft and an price indicated of €45m would rule out a commercial airliner. New: not enough budget. Second Hand, not allowed. We're looking at a bizjet.

    4000nm range rules out small-medium bizjets. It is roughly the minimum range to go transatlantic. The domain of a large bizjet.

    The ability the fit a DAS is preferred (as per the last three Air Corps tenders). This would suggest a manufacturer with military credentials.

    The €45m price rules out the larger Global Expresses and Gulfstreams. They would exceed that figure by quite a margin.

    One aircraft that ticks all of the above is the Dassault Falcon 6x. It has the range, is twin engined , has sufficient seating capacity, from a military manufacturer and is within budget.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,087 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    This criterion is very telling. They could accept a tender for a G700 at 80 million and it would still be legitimate.

    However, from my reading of it, the Tender has been written to railroad quite a narrow list of potentials, with one range of aircraft likely in mind.

    I have little doubt that our close friends in the government of the République Française will be working out a nice little all-in deal with Dassault to provide the plane and the weapons countermeasures systems specified for about €60 million.

    I think our new Government Jet will be the 12-16 pax, 6,000 nmi. Mach 0.9 Dassault Falcon 8X




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,101 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    That is one sexy beast!



  • Registered Users Posts: 313 ✭✭Grassy Knoll


    An adult decision- we need something to do a job, our current aircraft is, if not already, a borderline health and safety problem, we have the money, we need it, let’s go and buy it. End of story. This will be flown to death as per our current aircraft so it will not be under utilised.

    No point looking at this and that aircraft we had 20 or 30 years ago still flying around under different hands, best of luck to the next owners of the old Learjet, let them rebuild it or whatever, we need aircraft that are reliably operational and maybe others can take on the hassle and have the manpower to take on that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,944 ✭✭✭sparky42


    It’s been long fingered for far too long as I think we can all agree, strange to see the tender pushed out just before the “Inaction Plan” this week though.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,749 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    They could publish a tender now for 15 helicopters to replace the existing fleet and no one would care. Looking at the journal comments the freaks seam more worried about refugees than the jet being bought



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,444 ✭✭✭Dohvolle



    And somewhere in the comments will be someone asking about the FF or FG TD that approved planning when he was a councillow for a property his wife ended up owning... and demanding he resigns....



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,944 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Ah the Journal Comments section, to quote a Jedi, "You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy"



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