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Who to vote for to massively improve public transport?

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,937 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    The three projects you mention all predate the Greens entry into government. They were all FG government projects

    The Greens inherited these projects at a very late stage of their planning processes and none of them would be at the stage there are at now if they only came into being after the Greens entry into government.

    The reason that PT was ignored for so many decades was due to the country being one of the poorest in Europe. We've only been rich since the 90s. LUAS and the original Metro North plan, (the first of the major PT plans progressed in the states history) were FF projects and we didn't even have a proper road network until the late 00s.

    The current government being returned in some form is the best chance of these three major projects being realised.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,929 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Yeah I just think the fact they're going ahead may be down to greens in gov and on councils. Less TDs and local councillors trying to destroy plans. Unless you're in Cork that is, their busconnects is ridiculous.



  • Registered Users Posts: 308 ✭✭gossamerfabric


    no, not people like me, the majority who live in rural or suburban Ireland and will never be served by what the Green party claim they will deliver in this Utopia of theirs. Those who clicked on Thanks are the ones I expected to do so.



  • Registered Users Posts: 308 ✭✭gossamerfabric


    "We all partied" was uttered by a toerag of a Politician. You don't remember after the Troika was called in those who lived modest lives picking up the bill for those who flew too close to the sun. You'd like those who did not live lives of wanton conspicuous consumption to shoulder the burden.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,696 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    I can only base my opinions on my observed reality. I'm in Dublin every weekend, I live in Wexford and spent over 10 years living in meath, aswell as my teen + 20's years living in kildare and dublin. Couple that with being a fan of trains in general (#autism_yo) and I reckon I've quite a rounded experience of what our PT network is.

    We may have one bus that negates th example that I mentioned but we do not have town to town buses in the GDA. We don't have the coverage that we had 100 years ago. One of the biggest towns in the commuter belt, Navan, where I lived and commuted from for years, has one irregular bus to Blanch that takes 2X the time of a car journey and goes nowhere near the industrial parks, and has no rail network. Ever tried getting a train to Donegal? Or a bus from Enniscorthy to Ferns? Other than wexford bus (a private company who are actually pretty good and miles better than CIE) there are few options.

    The bus connects scheme promised a lot and has delivered some, but as you rightly point out there's lots more to do. Joining up the luases was a great development too.

    Lets take a couple of real world examples, right. I work in Blanchardstown. One of the industrial parks, well served in the past from the city center but a nightmare from anywhere else. (In reality I work from home 100% but my base is blanch if I ever have to go in for a client meeting or something, rare but it can happen). To drive from where I am to work is about 1.5 hours. More in traffic at peak, so lets say 2 hours. There is no park and ride facility, despite my office being 10 minutes and probably less than 10km from the M50. So I cannot drive somewhere , park up, and take public transport (or indeed take public transport the whole way). It was the same when I lived in Navan, commuting to a different location in Blanch. There was no bus - I could drive 10 mins to a local bus stop and get a bus that took 2 hours for a 45 minute drive, but left me over an hours walk from work. The bus route there was I think the NX but they renamed routes since so Im not sure.

    So, in neither of those situations, even if I was living in the local town, there was no suitable public transport, to one of the biggest industrial and FDI areas in the country.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 21,696 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Heres hoping, on the latter anyway!

    Cycle lanes are for cyclists, outside of city centers they are not used for commuting. Cyclists don't use them a lot of the time anyway. They are the most pointless endeavor as they help no one. We need prioritised bus routes, a luas expansion, and as you say, metro.

    If we can make it make sense to park up at designated areas outside the city and take public transport in, that's half the journey, if you pardon the pun



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,929 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    they've helped this suburbanite anyway, great improvements on cycling infra for those of us working in town, and also a 24 hour bus route serving where i am that was never there before so that's great for nights out. obviously "rural ireland" will always hate the greens as the greens don't want transport to revolve around private cars any more, which is a logical stance to take as we can't keep clogging everywhere with cars.



  • Registered Users Posts: 31 The Mathematician


    I just checked and Navan to Blanchardstown is now very doable by public transport, there seems to be an option about every 20 minutes for a journey time of less than an hour. So this is another improvement over how things used to be. Wexford to Blanchardstown is not as good, with most journey times being over 3 hours. However given 2 hours driving, it is not too bad, and lets face it, Wexford to Blanchardstown would not be a common commute. Public transport works best where there are large flows over shorter distances, and most commutes would be of this type.

    I am certainly not saying that everything is grand, we clearly should have a railway from Navan to Dublin, but I am saying that a lot has improved and I would worry that if the Greens are not in government the next time, the improvments would slow down.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,673 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    More cyclists use the cycle track at Leeson St bridge than motorists driving over the bridge. If you build and maintain quality cycle facilities, cyclists will use them in droves.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,696 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Navan to the industrial parks though? Not the shopping center which is a good hour's walk away.

    I'm not looking for a bus from wexford to blanch, just a park and ride system so folks coming from anywhere can drive on a motorway, and then park up and take PT into the congested area.

    I agree, I did say above that "outside of city centers they are not used for commuting". In the city of course it makes sense.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,929 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    of course they're used outside of city centres, lots of people cycle from suburbs to work in centres every day



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,442 ✭✭✭brick tamland


    I think the public transport has improved massively in Dublin over last few years (Near me anyway).

    The 90 minute €2 far is brilliant, a trip that may have cost 7/8 euro a few years back now costs 2. The bus connects have improved the areas I can now get public transport to, not just in and out of town (still room for improvement but its getting better). Dublin Bus running 24h services is also a brilliant addition too. Can get home from town all night for é2



  • Registered Users Posts: 308 ✭✭gossamerfabric


    Cars are not evil although the Greens consider them to be the bête noire. They are a component of the holistic transport solution which the helpless commuter is forced to default to as the portions of the solution which aren't personally owned by the commuter are lacking.

    Park and Ride has been paid lip service by the Green Party.

    Amsterdam is given an example of a city with great public transport with trams and bike lanes everywhere cited by Green evangelists on city breaks who never see the outskirts of the city. That isn't why Amsterdam works. Amsterdam works because the cars arrive at the Park and Ride locations at the edge of the city and proceed no further. Parking at P&R is plentiful, safe and cheap with trams waiting to whisk passengers in to the city.

    Luas has only 2600 parking spaces at p&r parking spots...that is nowhere near enough. Amsterdam has near triple the number of parking spaces in a compact country with commuter trains everywhere and blanket coverage of public transport within the city.



  • Registered Users Posts: 904 ✭✭✭angel eyes 2012


    We can only dream. I can't wait for them to be obliterated.



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,089 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Well if you are a single issue voter and you are serious about it, then you need to do something to change it....

    Pick a party, join it and work to get your particular concerns reflected in their policies and election objectives, that is how democracy works in this country. And of course visit the clinic of your local TDs, let them know your concerns and get all the people you know of a similar mind to do the same thing.

    Many moons ago I had a tax client who was not happy with her outcome, I gave her an off hand comment that the only way she could get what she wanted was if she could get the Minister for Finance to change the laws. It took her about 2.5 years, but the law was changed! She and her extended family haunted her local TD's clinics, the Finance Minister, party meetings etc... and it worked.

    So if you want change, then you have to set your mind to making it happen...



  • Registered Users Posts: 31 The Mathematician


    That would depend on the particular industrial park. There will always be journeys that are very difficult by public transport, my point is that there have been good improvements in the last few years, and my gut instinct is that the Greens are behind a lot of these.

    I am not convinced that a park and ride would work for an industrial estate that doesn't currently have a good bus service. Where would the car park be and what route would the bus take? Presumably it would have to 'go around the houses' to serve every industrial estate, and would drivers really park their cars and use such a service?

    To answer the other question about cycling, given high quality cycle paths leading into town, I see no reason why there shouldn't be a vast increase in using bikes for commuting (including travelling to school).



  • Registered Users Posts: 214 ✭✭CuriousCucumber


    It's almost like there isn't a quick fix



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,929 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    their legacy will still be here to haunt you though, permanent cycle lanes all over the place punishing the hard pressed motorist.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    I genuinely have no idea to vote for in the next election

    Public transport is a big thing, but I bought my house close to a rail line. (Grew up beside a rail line) So I'm kinda mostly covered already. Rail out to Rathfarnham would help slightly if it was here "Now" but it would be for at least another 10 years at which point my kid will be finished school and I won't need it.

    The Big problem we have is that people in Dublin think Public Transport and immediately think buses. People who don't live near or use the DART or the Luas Green line, don't understand how vastly superior it is to the likes of buses.

    I lived in Rathfarnham for a few years and the Public transport (16 Bus at the time) was beyond CRAP! like absolute F-Tier junk in comparison to the DART.

    The DART itself however is under threat, some of the Rolling stock is over 40 years old at this point without replacement and there is also attempts to curtail the service for the sake of not having to invest in big projects like Howth Junction points issue.



  • Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭csirl


    I dont get the love for the Greens there. Other than minor tinkering with bus routes, there have been no big PT developments in Dublin during their tenure.

    They were part of government for several years in the Celtic Tiger era , yet never progressed a metro systen at the only time in our history where there was plenty of capital funding available.



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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    While of course we need Metrolink, etc. buses can work well. I live in an area served only by bus and it is actually superior to DART in my area (though perhaps not Luas). I'm served by multiple busy bus corridors, so high frequency and a decent QBC into town.

    Of course this requires high frequency, like a bus every 3 minutes and quick journey time and I know many areas don't have it, but areas like mine that do it actually works quiet well.

    I'm not sure what you are talking about with DART, the contract for the new DART fleet has been awarded, with the new trains expected to start entering service next year.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,673 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    You also said;

    Cyclists don't use them a lot of the time anyway. They are the most pointless endeavor as they help no one.

    which is nonsense, on both counts.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,673 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Are the current Luas P&R car parks oversubscribed?



  • Registered Users Posts: 308 ✭✭gossamerfabric


    are you assuming everyone is aiming to take only the 2 Luas lines? You're question is as usual removed from communting reality for those commuting in to and through the city.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    For those of us living in some areas of Dublin, there really have been some major improvements in public transport over the last 5 years or so. For instance for me:

    • I now have not one, but two 24/7 bus services, running all night. Get home for just €2
    • An orbital route operating 24/7 that gets me almost door to door (small walk) from my home to my workplace. A trip before this orbital route started that would have involved a bus into town and back out, taking about 5 times longer!
    • €2 90 minute fare is simply fantastic value for money.
    • The road widening at the Cat and Cage took at least 10 to 20 minutes off my journey time into town.
    • Significant improvements in off peak and weekend frequency, making it easier to get around the city at non work hours.

    And this is only the early days of the BusConnects project, a lot more to come to the rest of the city as the new network is rolled out and the infrastructure work is done.

    Elsewhere 41 new ICR carriages will arrive to help increase the capacity and frequency of the rail network.

    DART+ project underway with 185 new DART carriages ordered for delivery starting next year.

    The local link bus services have been a big success in improving public transport in rural Ireland. Cork getting Double Decker buses and higher frequency has really improved the service there.

    Metrolink making it's way through ABP.

    I realise folks are frustrated by the slow pace of these improvements, me too. But they are happening.

    The thing is I don't see any other party offering an alternatives. And my concern is another party might consider cancelling some of the above projects, in particular Metrolink.

    The trouble is, politicians and political parties are far from experts on public transport and urban planning. The experts are the folks in TII, NTA, DoT, etc.

    They create plans like the National Development Plan, which frankly is a good plan, we just need to execute on it. Get it done and not have more delays and plans and talking by stupid politicians.

    I won't support any political party unless they come out and say they fully support the National Development Plan and guarantee that it will all happen.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Well a Green Party member is currently the minister of transport and has been progressing the three largest public transport projects in the history of the state!

    Metrolink, Dart+ and BusConnets are MASSIVE projects. And yes they are and will take many years to delvier. That is the thing about big infrastructure projects, they need to span multiple governments. Yes, the above projects started out as FFG projects, but they continue under a Green ministers stewardship.

    And eys I'm not happy with everything he has said and done, but frankly he is better then any other politician if your care about public transport.



  • Registered Users Posts: 308 ✭✭gossamerfabric


    The rate of adoption of e-scooters which are a personal mobility solution would suggest otherwise so a partial quick fix is available.

    I was roaming around a Spanish City last week where the shared scooters are banned and privately owned e-scooters were zooming absolutely everywhere...ridden considerately and the majority were wearing their helmets.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,673 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    You said that we didn't have enough P&R spaces for Luas users. I'm simply asking if the existing spaces are oversubscribed.

    It sounds like you don't know.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,880 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    I can't stand the greens, for their generally rightwing stance, eg bailing out the banks and insisting that diesel cars and mercury-filled lightbulbs were going to solve all of our environmental probelms. But in fairness to them they only joined the government in 2007 when the **** had already hit the fan only we hadn't noticed it yet. They had no money to spend and anyway Frau Merkel had decided that the Irish taxpayer needed to pay for the dodgy deals that some of Germany's biggest banks had carried out in the IFSC.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 308 ✭✭gossamerfabric


    God, you are deliberately obtuse. You know there are not enough light and mid level transport solutions in Dublin yet you are asking if there are enough P&R spaces on the few that we have. Asking whether the wholly inadequate supply of P&R location limited spaces are oversubscribed is an idiotic question.

    There is a reason why posters give you short shrift on this forum.

    You always use the same strategies to undermine and divert discussion. You are an absolute scourge to the collective. No wonder posters are abandoning the platform

    BTW In Amsterdam there is a website which tells you how many free spaces are at the P&R car parks...and in my city as well.



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