Who to vote for to massively improve public transport?

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121663761#Comment_121663761

Yes successive Irish governments have had an appalling track record when it has come to investing in and providing decent public transport in this country.

But I would disagree with you - FG have been appalling in the last 30-40 years when it came to investing in the railways. It has generally been FF governments who actually invested in them.

And to be fair to the Greens, the Connecting Ireland project which is currently rolling out new and enhanced regional and rural bus services all across the country was their baby.

Cookiemunster

I'll point out again that for the vast majority of the history of the state, we've basically been poor. It's only in the last 25 or so years that we've been able to afford to build things. It wouldn't have mattered if Labour, SF, the Greens or anyone else had been in government over those decades as there was no money there to build anything.

Since we got rich FF delivered LUAS and would have delivered Metro North if we hadn't had a global economic crash. FG got Metrolink, DART+ and BusConnects off the ground and into the planning process. Yes a Green minister has progressed these projects, but they would have been progressed anyway once FG were in government as they were FG policy.

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121663870#Comment_121663870

hmmm... Todd Andrews was responsible for shutting down multiple railway lines in the 1950s, with the approval and support of Lemass; which changed the face of the rail network and had a massive negative impact on many parts of Ireland.

While this is now considered an 'infamous' decision- to Cookiemunsters point, in the 1950s the country was on its knees financially, there was no money to pay for it. Hard to take the long view when your backs against the wall, thats not something the electorate will reward.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121663968#Comment_121663968

Well I was really thinking of the past 30-40 years or so.

I think going back 70 years plus is a bit much at this stage!

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121664006#Comment_121664006

You used the word 'historically'....

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121664269#Comment_121664269

Ok well i have now edited my original post to be more explicit - in the context of who to vote for, going back 70 years is probably stretching things! :-)

Banzai600

there is no culpability here if some flake doesnt do their job, in any public department or public service role.

Tax payers money is like toilet paper to the irish government , their minions and the slobbering greedy developers, a disposable endless commodity. So we're already defeated as tax payers before you start to try change ? pessimistic , i think not.

The Gr33n twats i find infuriating, they just railroad their agendas regardless, to me they are a real " fc*k you jack, its my party" regime, they are like fanatics imo. they have a smug snigger about them constantly.

if i wanted to go to work, its around 3hrs public transport EACH WAY. Seriously who'd want that, and i live/work in Dublin. i can do the same journey by motorbike / scooter in 30 mins or so. Why not promote two wheels ? scooters etc. we dont have the weather, but you can gear up for it, easy.

the cycle lanes around the country are great in a lot of cases but its brought Dublin city cntr and suburbs traffic to a slower standstill weekedays and weekends. I know of a couple of ppl with bike lanes outside their houses on wide enough roads, both north and south city, to which there was no need, and they have cars outside their doors constantly, long queues, whereby there used to be none before the cycle lanes.

There are ppl who NEED to drive and NEED access via the city. ppl who need to cross the city are being slowly tortured and being backed into a corner as the city will eventually be off limits to cars, but with that, i hope its the sword they die on..............no commerce = no jobs and then it turns into an even worse sh1thole. But thats another argument. Its all fine for the ppl who live in and around the city cntr, stones throw travel, we'll leave them to prop up commerce so, they can have it.

Dublin is a city, but its tiny, roads / streets are tight and its not big at all end to end or side to side. you cant model it on the likes of other euro cities because they have infrastructure , metro, buses that work to timetables, rental bikes and elec scooters etc dotted all over a very wide km range that dont get stolen or vandalised by teenage scrotes who are untouchable by the law here, as they all well know.. The liberals wont let cops use batons with juveniles, cops wont tackle juveniles a they could be penalised or loose their job, great thinking isnt it. you cant even park a motorbike or scooter in the city for fear it will be stolen or you have to challenge knife and tool wielding scum.

If i cross the city cntr, i can see the buses are slow, they do create traffic, and even if the city was car free, i still wouldnt be of any benefit to get to work. and even if there were no cars on the road and i had to go public, it would take 2 hrs each way - im not buying it.

then the other looming issue, which is unavoidable, he m50. To cross the m50 it costs ppl 5e a day who have tags, thats 200 pm. its hefty. And, the m50 it not far off full capacity imo - then what ? you have dublin port metering traffic morning sand evenings at their behest, and bringing the city to a standstill. who gave them that authority, its nuts. 3 hrs either direction both mornings and evenings its a slog for ppl, taking an hr some days to do a handful of kms being stuck in their cars.....lets see how the government fix that one.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121664979#Comment_121664979

did you consider distance/accessibility of your job before you took it? like personally i wouldn't go near a job that took 3 hours to get to by public transport.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121664390#Comment_121664390

I know someone who still bases his votes on something Jimmy Tully did as Minister - and not the Tullymander

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121664979#Comment_121664979

Public transport will never suit everyone’s commute, nor will it suit many orbital journeys due to the fact that very few orbital journeys will have the same start and end points. There is a limit to what public transport can deliver in some cases.

For some longer commutes, maybe people need to think if part of the trip can be done on public transport.

People often look at these things with an “either, or” approach when in fact a hybrid approach (part car, part public transport) can work in many cases.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121664979#Comment_121664979

Which particular roads have these bike lanes and constantly long queues?

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121664979#Comment_121664979

The Gr33n twats i find infuriating, they just railroad their agendas regardless, to me they are a real " fc*k you jack, its my party" regime, they are like fanatics imo. they have a smug snigger about them constantly.

The Greens are a minority party in government. They don't have the authority to railroad their agendas no matter what nonsense you read on Facebook!

if i wanted to go to work, its around 3hrs public transport EACH WAY. Seriously who'd want that, and i live/work in Dublin. i can do the same journey by motorbike / scooter in 30 mins or so. Why not promote two wheels ? scooters etc. we dont have the weather, but you can gear up for it, easy.

So you wouldn't like the option of having an efficient public transport system that gets you to work and back, comfortably and cheaply?

the cycle lanes around the country are great in a lot of cases

No they're not - in the vast majority of cases, they're absolutely sh1te so I can safely assume your perception of them is not based on actually having used them!

but its brought Dublin city cntr and suburbs traffic to a slower standstill weekedays and weekends.

How exactly do cycle lanes bring the city and suburbs to a standstill?

I know of a couple of ppl with bike lanes outside their houses on wide enough roads, both north and south city, to which there was no need, and they have cars outside their doors constantly, long queues, whereby there used to be none before the cycle lanes.

Where is this?

There are ppl who NEED to drive and NEED access via the city.

There are also loads of people who choose to drive into the city but who don't need to. These drivers slow down those who need to drive in!

ppl who need to cross the city are being slowly tortured and being backed into a corner as the city will eventually be off limits to cars, but with that, i hope its the sword they die on..............no commerce = no jobs and then it turns into an even worse sh1thole. But thats another argument. Its all fine for the ppl who live in and around the city cntr, stones throw travel, we'll leave them to prop up commerce so, they can have it.

Economic armageddon because of cycle lanes? Are you high?

Dublin is a city, but its tiny, roads / streets are tight and its not big at all end to end or side to side.

I'm assuming from the rest of your waffle that cars can use these tiny & tight streets but bikes make the streets worse?

you cant model it on the likes of other euro cities because they have infrastructure , metro, buses that work to timetables, rental bikes and elec scooters etc dotted all over a very wide km range that dont get stolen or vandalised by teenage scrotes who are untouchable by the law here, as they all well know.. The liberals wont let cops use batons with juveniles, cops wont tackle juveniles a they could be penalised or loose their job, great thinking isnt it. you cant even park a motorbike or scooter in the city for fear it will be stolen or you have to challenge knife and tool wielding scum.

FFS 🙄

Out of curiosity, which party do you think will make transport better?

Tarabuses

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121662371#Comment_121662371

Are they still at the drawing board or have they given up at this stage?

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121666351#Comment_121666351

Metrolink is at ABP - oral hearing next month.

Tarabuses

I am well aware of how Metrolink is progressing. I assumed your "drawing board" reference was in relation to overcoming the sewer problem.

csirl

People saying the Greens have delivered Metro and Dart+ are counting their chickens. No shovel in the ground yet. Stiill procurement and funding decision gates to go through and these will be beyond the term of the current government. History tells us that no project is certain until construction commences.

Also, neither project is a Green Party initiative - they've both been around for decades.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121667222#Comment_121667222

People saying the Greens have delivered Metro and Dart+ are counting their chickens.

I don't recall anyone stating that!

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121667185#Comment_121667185

The choice was to do Metrolink as is now progressing through the planning system, or, as I said, to go back to the drawing board and start again with a new plan for Swords to Sandyford.

The decision was made that the latter would just delay things far too long, and that as a result Metrolink would be designed as Swords to Charlemont.

In the meantime, the Green Line will see increased capacity as a tram line added through further increased frequencies and a new turnback at Charlemont being added in due course. The additional trams delivered and the tram extensions added during Covid have made a real difference capacity wise.

No decision on any further Metrolink extension has been made, but being honest we need to just get started on the current plan.

howiya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121667313#Comment_121667313

Are there any plans to increase capacity on the red line? There are a lot of new apartments/houses being built along it. Also working in the IFSC I see long delays between trams regularly despite the advertised rush hour frequency. 18 minutes as an example yesterday evening. Luas twitter account said service was operating normally.

Murph_D

Getting back to the original question:

If you want the status quo on public transport, vote FF/FG (and hope for a progressive coalition partner). For potential improvement, increase the diversity of that coalition so the Greens aren't doing all the heavy lifting. For massive improvement, we need a massive increase in Green influence, which means massive willingness to compromise from the bigger parties, including SF. That could happen with more Green seats and better coordination on this issue between the Greens and the left parties. In general you'd expect the left to support public transport more, as public transport (although it benefits everyone) ultimately benefits working people most of all.

So vote Green and transfer left.

csirl

The problem with the Greens is the conflict between development and environmental concerns. Any major public transport infrastructure project is going to have an environmental impact.

The other is economics. You cannot fund multiple major transport projects unless the exchequer is in good shape. Last time the Greens were in power we had an economuc crash. While we may not technically be in recession now, the ordinary person or business owner is feeling very stretched right now - it certainly feels like a recession.

Economic ideology is also important. There are some methods of infrastructure delivery that some parties have ideological issues with e.g. PPP, concession, privately financed etc.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121668690#Comment_121668690

I would have agreed only the left is terribly fractured between Labour trying to wear FF/FG clothes and failing, the SDs, SF looking at where the wind is blowing, and the Alphabet Soup of free money for all populist parties.

Greens have annoyed so many, esp rural dwellers, that they will get annihilated in the next election. Both Labour and Greens have awful leaders who haven't endeared themselves to the public.

Murph_D

Those are all valid points and hopefully, for those of us who care deeply about environmental and sustainability issues, can be mitigated during the campaign. It certainly won't be easy.

Citrus_8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121670378#Comment_121670378

While it feels like a recession now, it definitely wasn't just a recession a while back in 2009 - that was more severe and it's called an economic depression. There are quite significant differences there.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121671331#Comment_121671331

We are currently in a technical recession. As we have had four quarters of decline, though from a very high level and still with growth, so not bad.

Everyone has PTSD from 2009, understandably, but as you say, usually recessions aren't that bad and actually a good opportunity to invest in infrastructure due to counter cyclical economics.

Tarabuses

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121667313#Comment_121667313

Since the drawing board is now lying idle wouldn't it be a better option to use it to start looking at future Metro lines. As the process takes so long it is likely that we will not see any expansion for decades. We do not have to wait for the first line to be built before thinking about the next one.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121670378#Comment_121670378

Your first paragraph, 'the problem with the greens' - does not add up. The fact that a major public infrastructure project is not zero impact during construction is not a problem with the greens, or even a problem for the greens.

csirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121672120#Comment_121672120

Question - if we had a Glen of the Downs type scenario today - with an intercity rail link rather than a motorway. Would the Greens be ok with it? Or would they be chaining themselves to trees? I think it would be the later.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121672154#Comment_121672154

You're obviously failing to see why there was disagreement with the motorway going through the Glen. Any large project cutting through the Glen would be a bad thing. But you clearly want a score against the Greens so which is why you present this biased A or B question.

Plus i don't think the green Party had organised for members to chain themselves in the original Glen protests but again, I don't think you really care about that because it doesn't suit your particular agenda.

devnull

My discussions with Sinn Fein people on transport matters over the year I have to say have been rather awful.

They are absolutely full of soundbites and ideas and nice sounding plans, but when you try and press them on any kind of detail of how they are going to make those things happens, they quickly start to unravel that they are just saying what they want to happen, without any kind of idea of how they will make it possible, which quickly manifests itself as people who don't know the industry and it's problems at all.

It's easy to say that we're going to have free public transport when you don't have any idea where the hundreds of millions are going to come form to pay for it (aside from the usual 'tax the rich' soundbites) and improve bus services by throwing hundreds more buses at the problem when you are not going to need to find the people to drive the buses. Soundbites alone don't improve public transport, well thought out policies do.

Then again, as LXFlyer and others have said, the likes of FG haven't covered themselves in glory through the years and the record of the Greens is at best mixed and the DoT under FF was a total shambles for many years with it simply acting as a downtown office of CIE, more interested in pleasing them than the patrons of public transport services for a long time.

It's difficult to say to me who to vote for, the more centre to centre right tend not to be supportive of public transport as we'd wish, whilst in my view the left wing parties seem to not understand policy very well and are full of soundbites based purely on ideological grounds, without understanding how they will be able to implement some of their policies as they don't understand the details, just the headline items.