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FF/FG/Green Government - Part 3

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    We live not on cement alone. There are a myriad of things that could be levied or taxed other than cement. Putting the levy on cement will have the effect of inflating the price of new properties without upsetting anyone other than people who buy houses built after 2023 and it has the effect of generally keeping house prices elevated, which is something the government wants.

    If however, existing houses were taxed to pay the cement levy, that would put downward pressure on house prices generally and not inflate the cost of post 2023 houses. But the government does not want house prices to fall.

    The government says the cement levy is justified because the industry was at fault. So was justice the governments motive, when it applied the levy to cement? I doubt it. They were looking at the effect it would have of house prices generally. If justice was the governments motive, then they could have levied labour because the Gardaí were cheating when they doing the millions of fake breathilizer tests. The Gardaí are part of the labour force, they cheated instead of giving value for money, therefore all labour should be levied. Would that be just?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    Not according to me. According to the government. I would have put the levy on existing housing stock, which would have a deflationary effect on house prices generally without inflating the cost of new houses. But the government desperately want house prices to stay high. Hence the cement levy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,934 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    At least name it right as cement is just one product affected: Defective Concrete Products Levy or concrete levy for short.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,755 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Post edited by Cluedo Monopoly on

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,696 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    I wonder where the media are getting a November date for an election from, it wouldn't surprise me though if it happened because they have to call an election by Feb 2025 anyway.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,536 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    This March, the Irish people will go to the polls for the first time since Jan 2020. The Referendums, then the Locals/Europeans in June.

    They already know it's going to be a blood bath...the Government will not want to hang about soon after the summer elections, as doing so would allow for a greater period for opposition parties/candidates to organize, so it's be called after the Budget....that is the thinking!

    Pay no attention to the polls, there is no way this current Government will perform the same as Jan 2020 (which was a disaster for both Fg & FF), I don't even think Sinn Fein will, they have alienated their own support base. I can see Leo losing his seat.

    The media will of course pretend that the far right are to be feared every chance they get, as we can see even on boards, less and less people are being fooled by that tactic...we are in for a turbulent decade in my view, similar to what we have witnessed in other countries, but it is inevitable.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,917 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    The talk is they want to get another 'giveaway budget' in before the election. But IMO if you're going to do that you may as well let the government run its full term as people need a few months after such a budget to really feel is benefits...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Insurance has a levy to cover the insurance issues.

    Why not cement when the issue was in the building trade?

    What has the Gardai got to do with houses and the cement levy?

    You don't think you are getting "value for money" from the Gardai? so you want to tax "labour"? what labour?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,755 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    I think you are right. A giveaway budget and a late Autumn canvas might work best. February is never a great time for the government to have an election but their hand was forced the last time by Maria Bailey and the vote of No confidence. I think the government will get slaughtered, especially on transfers.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,917 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Not really seeing much difference between November and February as far as electoral conditions go. Both Ryan and Martin apparently favour going the full term and bookies are giving slight odds on for a 2035 election so i reckon that’s what we’ll get



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,095 ✭✭✭Blut2


    The thought process is that campaigning in January is pretty miserable, and governments in theory suffer from the population in general being in a more negative mood in Jan/Feb.

    The alternative is to have a late September budget, Oct/Nov campaigh season, and mid/late-November election.

    If the give-away budget measures are dated to begin in October (instead of January) there'll still be a month+ for people to feel them in their pockets, and for them to be very recent in voters minds.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,985 ✭✭✭MegamanBoo


    I'll probably vote SF as I believe we need a shift to the left on housing and they'll take us somewhere in that direction.

    My preference would be Social Democrat but the candidate they put out in my constituency was very weak last time round.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,095 ✭✭✭Blut2


    The state returning to actually building housing in large numbers. Instead of the disastrous policies we've had for the last decade of minimal state building, and billions of tax payer euros wasted on HAP and leasing of private sector housing units for social housing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Which as discussed on the other thread about housing would cripple Ireland and housing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,095 ✭✭✭Blut2


    ?

    The Irish state has built hundreds of thousands of houses in the past. Theres absolutely nothing stopping it from re-engaging in building tens of thousands more, this wouldn't do anything like "cripple Ireland and housing".

    If the state doesn't get more involved we're going to continue to build far fewer homes per year than are required, as the figures I posted on this very page show. We're building 20,000+ too few homes per year by the ESRI and Housing Commission's own (neutral, non politically biased) reports.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,318 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    SF are deluded if they think this is possible "McDonald said her party will focus on electing enough Sinn Féin TDs to form a government without Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil". Combine their notions of that with their similarly ridiculous notions about a UI, and their uncosted housing proposals and enough people will see through them to not allow them in.

    I suspect we will see a return of FF+FG along with a better third member, perhaps SD and/or Labor, depending on seats. I really don't see a reason not to return FFG to power when the alternative soundbite junkies have given nothing but pie in the sky proposals and dreams without foundations on UI. They (SF) have alienated a lot of their fanbase too with their position(s) on immigration. You can't play both sides of an argument, and there's a reason most nationalist parties are right wing - instead of left like SF - as left wing views don't tie well with pro national views.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    They have got away with picking no sides for years now. Look at the carbon tax when Sinn Fein supporters went around saying Sinn fein would remove it, Sinn Fein don't and never had plans to remove it. Just delay it. Yet they never came out and said that, got away with it as well

    On immigration they have finally come up against one that they have to pick a position and suddenly they are in trouble because some of the not so obsessed Sinn Fein supporters are now looking at the rest of their policies.

    Like all the people onlin complaining about the Green party and using wind to generate power suddenly read that Sinn Fein don't have an alternative and their plan is to actually speed up the building of wind farms with the magic money tree they have



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I mean, when you have Leo coming out with this..

    .. A man who has fallen asleep on the job (literally) and whose party has minimal electoral support (only 7% of those who bothered to turn out last time, and less since) being suggested as Taoiseach??? Really??

    This reads remarkably like you didn't read what he actually said because no, he did not "really" suggest that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,095 ✭✭✭Blut2


    Again, ? is really the only answer to that. Are you posting about something you have absolutely no comprehension of?

    The Irish state has built social housing units every year in its existence. The amount per year has fluctuated, but the peak per capita was around 10,000 a year in the 1970s. That was at a time when our population was half of it what it is now, when Ireland was one of the poorest countries in Europe, and when building anything required getting through mountains of corruption and incompetence.

    We were still building up to 6000+ social housing units a year in the late 2000s though. Its only been for the duration of the FG governments since 2011 that construction has been deliberately completely gutted.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    You seem to be referring to the government setting up its own construction company which is Sinn Fein plan.

    So that's why I ask about how long in the past. Maybe I am mistaken?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,095 ✭✭✭Blut2


    I haven't made any references to a government construction company.

    If you don't understand whats involved in state social housing then I would suggest you stop posting about the topic until you've educated yourself on the issue.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    I suggest you stop making assumptions and trying to belittle posters. If you want to discuss education levels then I suggest you start a thread and we can discuss that.

    You started off about HAP etc. Then you went on about building houses. I think the statement was "if the state get more involved"

    None of it is coherent yet you are ranting at me and telling me to educate myself.

    Maybe you could explain your point of view on what the current policy is and what you want to change to make it better. So far multiple posts and not a single one of them is a point of view, just a broad stroke like "The state returning to actually building housing in large numbers. Instead of the disastrous policies we've had for the last decade of minimal state building, and billions of tax payer euros wasted on HAP and leasing of private sector housing units for social housing"

    Which means nothing to be honest. If you want this to happen then lay out how you think it can?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,637 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    None of those supporting SF policy have a clue beyond the soundbites.

    You are asking for something they are not able to provide.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,755 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Let me lay it out for you with one example from the Housing "Plan"

    This time last year

    Government housing body has not built one house on state lands | Business Post

    The Land Development Agency (LDA), which was set up by the government four years ago to accelerate the construction of housing, has built no homes on state lands, new figures show.

    Previously unreleased details of the state agency’s activity under Project Tosaigh, its flagship programme, show that it has delivered just 270 homes, all of which were acquired from some of the biggest developers in the country rather than built by the agency itself.

    The LDA was established in September 2018 with a €1.25 billion capital budget to expedite the construction of 150,000 homes over 20 years on state lands. At the time, the government said sites had already been earmarked for 10,000 homes.

    4 years = Nothing. Then in a bit of a panic around the LDA's utter failure we got all kinds of kites flow about an even bigger budget but a lot of those kites were rubbish...

    ‘We don’t know where the €6bn is coming from’ – confusion over Darragh O’Brien’s budget plans | Business Post

    ‘We don’t know where the €6bn is coming from’ – confusion over Darragh O’Brien’s budget plans

    A fortnight after his budget day announcement, the Land Development Agency ‘capitalisation’ figure touted by housing minister seems to have dissipated into the woodwork.

    -----------------------

    Typical FG/FF planning.

    Oh did I mention the Childrens Hospital which has no completion date or final cost yet. 7 years late, 7 times over budget. Nice work.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,489 ✭✭✭WishUWereHere


    Can only but agree with You. Also what I found very slow to react was MLMcD took her time to denounce the terrible tragedy in Parnell Square, especially as it’s on her own patch.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    Yes I think the cement people who messed up should have had insurance against their incompetence but they didn't and somehow or other it is now to be paid for by people who buy houses that get built from now on. The government has spoken.

    As for the Gardai, I used them as an analogy. If you read the full post instead of stopping at the word Gardai, you would have known that.

    Taxing labour because the Gardai were faking breathalyser tests is about as logical and fair as the cement levy, so to answer that question, no I don't. It was an analogy to illustrate a foolish decision by the government.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,489 ✭✭✭WishUWereHere


    You are the very person who said in words to the effect of ‘most of those on here who are anti green are SF supporters’, or something similar.

    You were making assumptions & trying to belittle posters making that statement.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,095 ✭✭✭Blut2


    My stated position is that the state needs to stop wasting billions of tax payer euros on demand side interventions like HAP, and instead re-engage in large scale building of social and affordable housing on the supply side as it did for most of our history since independence.

    Its a very coherent, clearly stated position, that anyone who understands the Irish housing market at even a basic level would understand. I do apologise if you aren't able to understand what it means, but thats not my fault - and nor is this thread the place to have very basic concepts like the above further broken down to you. Which is why I suggested you educate yourself further on the matter before making posts about it. Its not an effort to belittle you, its just an empirical observation of ignorance and resulting statement of fact.

    Its been laid out multiple times in this thread (by myself and others) how exactly this can be achieved - building instead of leasing, widescale training of more apprentices, diverting of construction resources from commercial projects to housing, importation/boomerang migration of construction workers etc. The fact our current government is doing none of these things, many years into the housing crisis, and is now giving best case scenarios of us producing 10-20,000 fewer homes than are needed per year for years to come, shows only gross incompetence.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Different thread about a different topic and was nothing about trying to belittle a poster.

    Honestly no idea how you got that from the post on the other thread or why you think it is relevant to this discussion?Especailly when the poster is telling me to "educate yourself" and "absolutely no comprehension of?"

    Maybe you can explain why you decided to pull that up from another thread?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    It made no sense to bring the Gardai into the discussion and still make none now. It is a totally different scenario and has nothing in common. Maybe if you brought up pyrite or something in construction. Strange to attack the Gardai over construction

    Anyway, lots of posts on this but you still didn't answer the first question I asked when you posted, what was the alternative? the construction industry caused the issue so it makes sense for that industry to pay for the repairs?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    Do you know what an analogy is. It is something different to what you are talking about. The Gardai fit the bill perfectly. Pun intended.

    I did answer the question. I said tax existing housing stock instead.

    The government is only doing it this way to further inflate house prices. If they really wanted the cement industry to pay, they would have seized and sold their assets to the amount required.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Condescending post, I wouldn't have expected anything less.

    So you can't answer the question. I didn't expect you could in the first place.

    FYI small point, if you knew anything about construction you would know that moving people from commercial to housing won't work as they have a different skill. Steel workers, shuttering etc.

    Will leave it at that, I'm sure you are busy on other threads been a hard person from behind the keyboard



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,489 ✭✭✭WishUWereHere


    I was involved in the other thread. You made the assumption I checked You on it by informing you not everyone who is anti green is pro SF.

    So, imho, You made that assumption then come up with the above to me you had to be reminded.

    Maybe You can explain what inspired you to make the original assumption?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    No it's not but anyway.

    So you don't want to tax new houses but tax existing houses? who are already paying taxes like LPT etc? plus house insurance and the insurance levy on that etc?

    People who are already paying mortgages and struggling with bills etc should take on another tax.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Why don't you go and ask on the thread the discussion was on? quoting the actual post I made while you are at it. 👍️



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,489 ✭✭✭WishUWereHere


    Why do you finish (almost )every post with a question?

    You know what You said, you are the person who made the comment above. I’m not going to bother anymore.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    I am not allowed to say that existing housing stock has been deliberately inflated by 200 billion euro since 2009, when the market was trying to correct itself, so I won't say that.

    Nor will I point out that taxing existing housing stock to the tune of 200 billion euro to undo that manipulation is the correct course of action.

    What I will say is should the economy hit the rocks, the government will have three choices:

    1) Go on another borrowing binge, but the interest rates are likely to be high and if the ECB facilitated such a policy, the Euro would devalue.

    2) Cut spending. This would mean state employees would have trouble with their mortgages and the banks would be impacted.

    3) increase taxes. But on what? VAT in an inflationary environment? Labour in a recession. Or as I recommend, property so the correction of 2009 may resume what it was trying to correct.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Why are you going on about what you are not allowed to say?

    Maybe I have this wrong, but you want to tax existing housing stock to drive the price of the houses down? forcing hundreds of thousands of people to default on mortgages and out of their homes?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Thank you for telling me you won't bother with me anymore.

    FYI I was trying to be nice to ask you to use the thread the post was actually on. It wasn't a question. It was been polite.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,095 ✭✭✭Blut2


    You have a pretty spectacular record of being driven out of every thread you post on for making really low quality posts, completely lacking in real life understanding, as WishUWereHere half mentioned. Its not condescending when people point this out, they're just observing the facts. ps200306's post here from yesterday is a great example: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121559074/#Comment_121559074

    You'd be rather better off spending your time on wikipedia (at the least, as an intro) educating yourself on Irish politics instead of posting wacky ignorant opinions all over the place and than replying angrily to everyone who corrects you accusing them of being mean to you.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,755 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    Exactly! It would have happened anyway had the government not interfered following the 2008 credit crunch.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Not sure how to post from previous pages but you posted this

    You are being dishonest when you say that what Mary Lou said is "nearly the same thing" as what the FF councillors were saying. I will never vote SF but I take exception to your dishonest posting.

    So no thanks



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    So you want to bankrupt the country and leave people sitting on the street. Good for you. I doubt you will get much support from anyone else.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    Sorry to disabuse you but people are already on the streets. The issue is who is most and least deserving of housing and who is most and least deserving to be sleeping on the streets.

    I would contend the people who should be on the streets are those who went nuts in the naughties, borrowing too much and later defaulting for years on end.

    The people who deserve housing are those who were school children at the time but cannot afford to buy into our rigged housing market.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,755 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    So you had no response then. Your argument about state building was shot out of the water. Not the first time caught out eh, is that your point? I make no apologies for taking exception to dishonest posting.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    13,179 people are homeless according to a google. We had a population of just over 5m people in 2021. Would be more now.

    So that is below 0.3% of the population. Too high of course.

    So the best plan you can come up with is to drive more people onto the street. Everyone deserves a home, not just people with children. That just my opinion.

    Anyway you have gone to the ridiculous now so I will leave you at that. The cement levy is introduced because it was the construction industry who was at fault. Same before with insurance levy etc.



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