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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,726 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    Why would this CBAM red tape affect imports from Germany or elsewhere in the EU though?

    No mention of CBAM for motor parts in the article you linked to. Can you explain where this is provided for?

    how much do you think the increased administrative burden would cost on €100m worth of steel or fertilizer? €50k maybe?

    You are saying the ETS is part of the CBAM? It is not. The ETS is free standing. It’s been there for years before the CBAM.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,258 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    For sure but let's not fkr forget an BP are a statutory body they answer to who exactly?

    Just because they have proven to be corrupt doesn't wash any minister's hand of foul play.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,258 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    And yet, I thought Lisbon V2.0 have us some autonomy over some of these issues.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,700 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    I was in Deansgrange yesterday waiting outside a Doctors surgery for just shy of 2 hours. I watched one bicycle use the segregated cycle lane between the N11 and Dunlaoighre. One!

    What a waste of infrastructure! They could have skipped both cycle lanes and installed a proper bus lane in either direction (there were 23 buses in that time, counting both directions) that would help far more people.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 185 ✭✭drop table Users


    Unfortunately the bus lobby are not as militantly fanatical as the cyclist junta



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,946 ✭✭✭eightieschewbaccy


    Hey, you might have missed my earlier response to you so I'll give benefit of the doubt. Care to share your source for the speculation that Hungary will become like an economic powerhouse? Thanks. 😲



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,700 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    You would think they'd do some road usage analysis before squandering tens of thousands of euro on segregation? Cater for the most beneficial to society first.

    How much does all the bollards and concrete (or removable blocks) cost vs painting a few white lines?

    I've no problem with giving over roadspace to buses or bicycles if it is regularly used as intended. They can have it all if it's justifiable. But only one bike between 10am and 11:55am is ridiculous. Yesterday was a working day, I'm not sure if it would be better or worse at the weekend, but I don't think it'd be a material difference. You could always argue that it was a bit breezy yesterday so the cyclists chose alternative transport, but then why cater exclusively for them on a generally windy island?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,946 ✭✭✭eightieschewbaccy


    Segregated cycle lanes have been shown by most studies to increase the safety of cyclists. So from a road safety perspective, they're a win in contrast to existing lanes. On top of that, people park in cycle lanes and often they're simply not safe. So if anything, it's how they should have been done in the first place. It's also pretty consistent with what most countries put in these days. I do think there's an element of complaining for the sake of complaining.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,535 ✭✭✭batman_oh


    They've done stupid things like this everywhere too. On Mobhi road they have slowed all the buses down trying to turn onto the end of the Ballymun road/Griffith Avenue as they have removed a full right turn bus lane to allow for a 100 metre section of cycle lane that cuts across a junction that I've yet to see anybody use. Beautiful work altogether.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,700 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    Increasing safety is all well and good, but only if the infrastructure is actually used. Otherwise, it's a waste of money and precious road space that could have been given over to other uses. Instead, it has just made the road less convenient for the majority of users (public transport and private alike) and less safe by introducing new obstacles - particularly for pedestrians, the most vulnerable of all, because there's now new trip hazards demarking the cycle lanes and worse, vehicular traffic no longer anticipate pedestrians stepping in front of them to cross the roads as they're segregated.

    To your second point, I'm complaining about the wasted opportunity and the seeming lack of any sort of cost benefit analysis done in advance of another "green" whim. Implement first, shrug later when take up is negligible, then scold society for not doing what they were told.

    It seems the only person here who is complaining for the sake of complaining is yourself.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,770 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande



    Supply chains are global, many raw materials come from outside the EU. The sectors most affected are fertilizers, iron and steel and aluminium. This was even before the Russian invasion, war aside, no way are the Russians complying with this. Many of theses raw materials are used to make car parts. CBAM is red tape, it takes time to process forms (+ later inspection & auditing), time is money, the extra cost is passed to the consumer either in terms of price or offset with a reduction in quality or extended delivery times.

    Why bother with all this, Why not shut down production with in the EU and move outside the jurisdiction where you can get the raw materials without the hassle? That's exactly what is happening, CBAM is just another straw for the camels back. Companys and their shareholders (could be your pension fund) expect a return on investment, when production costs are lower elsewhere, they move.

    The EU politicians and bureaucrats intention is to use CBAM to prevent EU industries outsourcing their production to countries that do not adopt similar levels of "carbon pricing", for EU consumers that translates to higher prices for car parts by locking out cheaper competition.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,304 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    Dublin is not the center of the world. There are other cities like Limerick where for example part of Childers road between Roxboro and Tipperary roundabout is practically impassable with nowhere to pull if ambulance needs to get through. Seen it last week and I bet anyone stuck in that ambulance on that part of the road did not enjoy being stuck in there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,304 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    It seems that COP28 was useful in many ways some probably not expected by our self loathing representatives. It appears that there were quite a few juicy oil deals planned and since documents about this leaked they most likely did them in some back rooms :)

    These deals should not really concern western world as we are clearly on a path of deindustrialization and will use green "biomass" so we wont need that much of oil anyway.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,726 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    When you say cheaper competition are you talking about state subsidization? Like you complained about re Chinese manufacturing.

    You need to make up your mind what side of the argument you are on.

    The extra bureaucracy in relation to a shipload of steel is so tiny as to be almost nothing. But if you can prove this mad point, be my guest.

    Finally, the cost of steel as a proportion of the cost of a finished spare part of a car from the distributor is tiny. CBAM on steel will make no difference to speak of to the price of a car part.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,770 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    One of the issues I've encountered as a consequence of Brexit is obtaining garden plants and seeds that are not stocked by Irish suppliers. Most of the UK suppliers I used pre-Brexit are small operations and due to the cost of burden created by EU regulations they will not deal with with me directly. It's the same product, the overhead of the regulations is not worth it for them. I still want the product, I can't afford the regulatory cost either.

    Large organisations can operate at scale, can distribute the costs of the regulatory overhead across the number of units they sell, that works out at a few cents extra to the end-consumer, the company accounts may show €100,000+ going on paperwork and compliance officer wages. There are other consequences, startup companies cannot meet these burdens that established companies can.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,304 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    One need quite a lot of cheap energy to turn that steel to a car part. It all adds up don't you think?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,726 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    What startup company would be importing steel beams BY the half-tonne from India and using it to forge tiny quantities of spare parts? This is crazy fantasy stuff. If such an artisan car parts manufacturer Does indeed exist, they buy their steel and aluminum from a supplier within the EU. There is absolutely no analogy between you buying a few rhododendrons and availability of car parts in Germany.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,726 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    So make it somewhere else where there is cheap energy? The price of energy in Europe is driven by geopolitics. It is not caused by the CBAM.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,770 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande



    That is exactly what is happening. German companies turn raw materials into useful products that are sold worldwide. By limiting the availability of both raw materials and energy, industrial production is curtailed. The companies are moving out to where they can produce. The ability of OPEC or OPEC+ cartel being able to set the price of barrel of oil has gone since the 1980s. Among other things, the green crusade pursued by EU nations has undermined their member nations energy availability and security in pursuit of magical thinking that the continents homes, industry and transport can be powered by intermittent wind and solar.

    As the following programs from German broadcaster Deutsche Welle show, that inflection point is upon them. It is highlighting the migration of German industry and the brakes being put on German government spending. It is time for the pragmatism of Realpolitik to take precedence over green ideology, otherwise the abyss of de-industrialization and Malthusian #beyondgrowth takes hold.

    CBAM is another straw to be loaded on the EU camels back, conceived in a world that enjoyed decades of unprecedented growth following the collapse of the communist bloc. A period that on the whole has seen the greatest rise in living standards for the worlds population in the known history of mankind. Last time OPEC created a bottleneck in energy supply, it contributed to mass famines in Africa during the 1970s & 80s.

    The immense increase in liquidity which has accrued to the oil-exporting countries during and after the oil boom years, has negatively affected poor third world countries in two different ways. There is first the fact that increased liquidity or money supply without a corresponding increase in the availability of goods and services, has resulted in a general rise in prices. The effect this has had on developing countries are two-fold.

    (1) Directly, by straining the foreign exchange reserves as the energy bill has come to claim a large portion of the national budget. And (2) indirectly, through the general rise in prices of finished industrialised goods in the international market. Developing countries have found it increasingly difficult in this situation to meet their import requirements. Consequently they have become prone to facing a widening gap in their balance of trade, which they have to make good by resort to borrowing from international lending institutions, thereby adding to the already huge debt burden. source


    You bought up the effect of geopolitics on price of energy, guess what happened to Pakistanis as Germany and other EU countries bought up all the LNG


    Let's imagine for a moment, the EU is somehow eventually successful with CBAM, thus forcing up the prices of raw materials and finished goods for the rest of the world, thus prices the finished products outside the ability of people on low incomes across all continents to consume them, it impoverishes people, it induces famine.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,726 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    You have gone on about a lot of things (including famine) but you haven’t explained the mechanism by which CBAM will significantly impact the price of importing spare parts for cars from Germany.

    i thought you said you opposed dumping of high carbon manufactured goods? Are you in favour of it now?

    Do you feel all efforts to increase environmental standards through international cooperation end in famine, or do you consider the CHAM to be unique.

    Am I right in remembering that you disagree with the governments of every country in the world about there is any need whatsoever to reduce carbon emissions?

    Let us know if you come up with an answer about the spare parts.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,770 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    The point about the plants and Brexit is to highlight the economic cost and effects of red tape on small enterprises and consumers. Like Brexit, CBAM adds a regulatory hurdle that did not exist previously. There are quite a few small businesses that trade directly with non-EU countries for raw materials, you may have heard of Ali-Baba? Anyone hear of 3D-printing? Small enterprises can prototype their product locally and contract a supplier in Asia or United States to manufacture the product. The infrastructure is in place and it is being used.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,662 ✭✭✭ps200306


    How am I a climate change denier? I just said its effects in the USA in 2023 were negligible. If something I wrote is wrong, spit it out rather than casting aspersions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,770 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    You have gone on about a lot of things (including famine) but you haven’t explained the mechanism by which CBAM will significantly impact the price of importing spare parts for cars from Germany.

    To make spare parts a company needs energy, raw materials and labour. When the raw materials and sub-components are sourced outside the EU, the CBAM regulatory cost gets added to the input costs to produce the final product. That is just the starters, from 2026 CBAM goes beyond regulatory costs. That's when end consumers will notice.

    Once the permanent system enters into force on 1 January 2026, importers will need to declare each year the quantity of goods imported into the EU in the preceding year and their embedded GHG. They will then surrender the corresponding number of CBAM certificates. The price of the certificates will be calculated depending on the weekly average auction price of EU ETS allowances expressed in €/tonne of CO2 emitted. The phasing-out of free allocation under the EU ETS will take place in parallel with the phasing-in of CBAM in the period 2026-2034. source

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,726 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    You are going around in circles. We were through this already.

    The steel and manufacturing energy is a tiny tiny part of the cost of a fulfilled car spare. A 1kg part costing a hundred euros or more will have maybe 1 euro worth of steel in it. Low barriers to trade in the EU and beyond through trade agreements are what keep this cost low.

    The Ukraine war is a big issue sure and is driving inflation. Nothing to do with CBAM.

    i think you have misunderstood the structure of manufacturing industry. It is not like horticultural nurseries. CBAM makes a difference to steelmakers and to steel stockholders. Manufacturers of parts will never have to deal with CBAM at all. There is no administrative impact.

    I am still confused. Are you against dumping subsidised products in EU markets, or in favour?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,770 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    CBAM is an additional cost in the production chain that is ultimately borne by the end consumer. For now, the CBAM overhead is the cost of implementing the regulation, from 2026 when the regulations has been embedded, the costs to the end user will noticeably rise, as will delays in production caused by obtaining the certificates. Some suppliers will find more profitable markets and not bother with the EU, others will find a way to game the system.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,726 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    This is all incorrect. The administrative burden is tiny. The amount won’t affect the price of a car part. What global steel or aluminum producer can possibly afford to stop marketing in Europe?

    How would you propose that dumping of subsidized product be combated?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,770 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    CBAM is red tape. Administration and audit trails cost time and money, this particular regulation adds no value to the quality of the end product, only cost.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,726 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    It’s an anti-dumping measure to combat illegal subsidy. Why on earth would you expect it to ‘add value’ to the adjusted product?

    I fear you have completely misunderstood the CBAM.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,940 ✭✭✭?Cee?view


    “It’s an anti-dumping measure to combat illegal subsidy”. How is that the case? What would the illegal subsidy be that is being countered? Is the purpose not to prevent “carbon leakage” which doesn’t appear to have anything to do with anti-dumping or the prevention of market participant harm by dumping

    Post edited by ?Cee?view on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,700 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    It is nothing of the sort. The clue is in the name. Carbon border adjustment mechanism.

    It is to prevent carbon accounting not tallying up on the EU borders. All it does is add administrative burden (ergo cost) and for what? So some greenius can sleep better at night?



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