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Russia - threadbanned users in OP

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,973 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    They couldn't "keep" women and children in the country when Russia started it's multi-front invasion. The West and rest of the world struggled to provide them with the arms they really needed at the time (and continue to do so).

    Despite all that, and losing a third of it's already weak (poor and stagnant) economy, and being under long-range missile and infrastructure attack, Ukraine has managed to get domestic arms manufacturing going and attracted foreign arms investment (e.g. German giant Rheinmetall has setup a factory there)

    Also, several million Ukrainians have returned to their country during war-time.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    @Dohnjoe several million Ukrainians have returned to their country during war-time.

    Returned on a brief visit?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,604 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    Probably went back for a holiday. I hear Ryanair is doing cheap flights to Donetsk.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,973 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Difficult to determine whether it's permanent or shorter term, but the figures (as of early this year) were around 5+ million "returnees"




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Don't think they have returned on anything other than a visit other wise the population would have rapidly increased, instead we are still seeing decreases,many here will likely return to Ukraine for Christmas before returning here in January



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    It's already been documented that many are planning to leave their emergency accommodation here for up to a month for Christmas,



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Seems to be divisions in the Ukrainian leadership, zelensky has been called out several times lately by others in Ukraine including by commander in chief Zaluzhnyi and the Klitschko brothers , on top of two attempted assinations which I don't think Russia had any hand in ,

    They need to get there house back in order or Risk bigger and damaging splits..




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,830 ✭✭✭.Donegal.


    I don’t think Ukrainian men of fighting age should be deported to fight, it’s never going to happen. The exception being those who commit violent crimes whilst here as was the case in a hotel here the other week where a Ukrainian man battered a woman in the hotel for refugees they were staying at. Sent to the hotel in Dublin as punishment. If you can batter a woman you can go fight on a real battlefield.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,327 ✭✭✭RGARDINR


    Saw that on skynews. It's not a great thing at all. Would cause divisions in chain of command. Probably as there hasn't been much Ukranian advances as they hoped. I would say zelensky is just worried that nations might pull back on the support they are been given now as nations were probably expecting Ukraine to have taken back a massive chunk back from Russia. That's not how wars work in the time frame I say some countries and leaders were expecting but I suppose it's hard to tell countries that if it's not their country under attack.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,888 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    You are delving into the philosophical argument of the social construct and the obligations of the State to the Citizen... and the return obligations of the Citizen to the State. An example from the Pennsylvania Constitution of 1776, Art 8 is a fair case in point.

    image.png


    This is no recent argument. From an issue of Ethics and International Affairs in 2004.

    image.png

    Or from an 2010 issue of "Armed Forces and Society"

    image.png

    The latter seems to be the dominant line of thinking. Basically, it may be moral to refuse to serve in some circumstances, but if the fight is 'just' (and I would argue that your example of a peaceful Ireland being invaded by tanks coming South from Newry is about as 'just' as it gets), there is such a moral obligation.

    Go to a 1936 issue (July) of International Journal of Ethics and you will find the following.

    image.png

    However, it also points out:

    image.png

    The question of the return duty of the citizen to the state has even made it to courts. In 1918, the draft law was challenged in the US Supreme Court.

    image.png

    The form of conscription which has proven a bit more troublesome on ethical grounds (but makes sense on practical) is peacetime conscription: If there is no active threat to the State, what right does the State have to compel service? The opinions seem a little more split on the matter. That is not, however, the current situation in Ukraine, and Putin may well be categorised as one of the "homicidal lunatics in control of government policy" referenced above.

    With the acceptance that personal ethics are, of course, entirely personal, society inherently places limits on those individual foibles. (Ethical to kill certain people? To steal things? Whatever. They are our laws). To that extent, in modern society it seems likely that your position is an outlier and society may well demand your service regardless of your lack of feeling of personal obligation back to the State. Consider yourself fortunate that as an Irish resident, such a requirement is highly unlikely.

    This is, of course, all a separate question of whether a country has the duty to return wayward citizens to the country of origin, which itself is rather untested in Europe. There was no extradition clause for draft dodging between the US and Canada in Vietnam. I am a little surprised that it has not yet been suggested by Ukraine, but it seems that the default position right now is "If you try to leave and we catch you, we'll punish you. If you make it out, we'll leave it be and consider things when we have less pressing matters to attend to".



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,209 ✭✭✭Economics101


    That is nonsense. It took me about 3 seconds on the Ryanair website to confirm this.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,604 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    With the acceptance that personal ethics are, of course, entirely personal, society inherently places limits on those individual foibles. (Ethical to kill certain people? To steal things? Whatever. They are our laws). To that extent, in modern society it seems likely that your position is an outlier and society may well demand your service regardless of your lack of feeling of personal obligation back to the State. Consider yourself fortunate that as an Irish resident, such a requirement is highly unlikely.

    "Society" as defined by who exactly? Are you suggesting that in the event of an invasion, there wouldn't be a mass race for Rosslare et al? Which, to be honest, doesn't seem likely at all and you could guarantee every point of entry would quickly become blocked with people attempting to leave. I don't think there's a philosophical quandary here because ultimately I don't care about some "contractual" obligation of the state demanding my participation in conflict.

    And TBH you're comparing a country whose foundation was built upon the notion of State Militias - to the extent that the question of a certain amendment in the constitution remains an active, nay outright contentious, one - with a peacetime constitutional republic such as Ireland; one whose response to invasion probably would be the 3 Day War suggested by Putin. People should have the right to refuse to take up arms, and any argument to the contrary washes thin when asked to fight for something I find nothing more than an artificial construct in the first place.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,738 ✭✭✭✭josip


    So what happens if everyone in every country thinks and acts the same as you pixelburp? You'll run out of safe countries to flee to.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,209 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    If everyone in every country was a pacifist you'd only have safe countries. An evolved species my hoop.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,888 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    I didn't only bring up US sources. To my knowledge, Hegel and Herzog were very much not American. The 1936 article was written by an Englishman named C. Delisle Burns, a Professor of Citizenship. (No idea if that's still a thing). The point is that it is a widely discussed concept, including in the US.

    Well, Oxford defines society as "the aggregate of people living together in a more or less ordered community." The artificial construct in question has governed your activities for much of your life in the furtherance of that more or less ordered community, but you have a fair point: Let's assume there's a mass race for Rosslare. Unlike Ukraine where it's pretty easy to cross a border on foot, good luck swimming to Holyhead or Brest. You may well find yourself and your family stuck on the shore, awaiting a boat from... someone. I can't imagine Stena will be in a hurry to sail its ships to a war zone. What happens when, due to lack of resistance, the invading forces get to Rosslare, and you? Trust on the good offices of the invading force? That hasn't worked well for Ukrainian citizens who didn't get out from the areas Russia seized. Of course, this is all wildly hypothetical for the Irish situation.

    As you do point out, Ireland is not the US. Neither is it Ukraine. Whatever the limited chances are of an invasion of Ireland, such was not the case for Ukraine, and the question is not in any way abstract. Ukraine was in the happy position that it did not need to take a defensive posture similar to, say, Norway, whose official stated goal for defense is not to defend the country per se as it would be an impossible task but simply to slow down the opposition long enough for help to arrive (Which is, in practice, pretty much the Irish position, although unstated). Ukraine, as a society, had the capability to defend itself, but only if that society also provided the mechanism to do it. Much as any society can compel certain actions of its citizens (you do pay tax and generally obey the laws, right?) on the grounds that the citizenry as a general whole believe that it is communally beneficial to do that, it seems logical that those actions can compel military service as well. By inherent definition, 'compel' means forcing a course of action no matter the personal opinions of the person in question.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    That's not a realistic scenario or question to ask: come on (though presumably if Ireland were invaded France, UK, Germany et hvae already fallen so we probably couldn't flee). This is all a bit too Big Talk and keyboard warrior stuff that Ukrainian men should be back in Ukraine manning trenches or "helping the war effort" - and a slightly tedious dismissal of both war and how we react to it as individuals or small groups. Oh we like to think we'd grab our pitchforks and march boldly out to face the enemy. No. At least I'm being honest in admitting that my first instinct would be to get myself and my family the F Outta Dodge. While my own 1st degree experience - albeit a sample size of precisely one man from Ukraine lol - was of a fellow who wanted to do same. Easy to condemn when not faced with the realities of war; I hate to speak of a person's private situation, but all I'll say is that he's not doing OK. We're trying to give him emotional support but that's hard remotely, and he's not doing well. War is héll on everyone, and breaks us down in its own ways.

    Trotting out some kind of social contract like there's an imperative to take up arms is, well, a little bit American and melodramatically fanciful. I have no interest in fighting, have no desire to kill or hurt others and maybe - maybe - if there really was some dreadful existential threat such that it threatened by family's future? Yeah! Who knows how my brain chemistry would react then - but my own hypothetical response is more honest than some of this chest puffing reductiveness of How Dare These Men leave their country; a reduction that does smell a bit like "get the migrants out of Ireland", which is very on brand ATM unfortunately.

    I think that's all I'll say on that subject cos I'm not gonna speak for Ukrainian refugees like I'm close to them, or defend my own perfectly valid position like it's abhorant or shameful. Maybe the problem in the world is an over-eagerness from some to fight when fighting wasn't necessary.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,316 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    There's zero commercial flights over Ukrainian airspace. Common knowledge since Russia invaded.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,209 ✭✭✭Economics101


    I agree. Why then did you post nonsense about Ryanair flights?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,604 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    Honestly that reflects my sentiments.

    I'm not experienced in war or combat in any way bar an interest in military history. I just finished reading The Old Breed and active combat sounds horrific and inhumane.

    Far be it from me to tell to some Ukranian refugee to go home and "do their bit". I would be on the first flight out of here if I heard Micheál Martin on the radio looking for volunteers.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,749 ✭✭✭Apiarist


    Well, if Ireland gets attacked, then it's likely there are no safe places left. In that case, I'm staying to fight. As regards to Ukrainians, I don't think Ukraine faces a shortage of men to conscript. It is more likely a question of how many people can be trained, equipped and maintained day-to-day in the armed forces. You can recruit 100 thousand soldiers, but this means another, say, 200 thousand support personnel, plus cars, ammo, weapons, food that need to be supplied and maintained. Unless you can use these soldiers soon, it is a very expensive.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,725 ✭✭✭macraignil


    Since you are too lazy to provide any evidence to support your anti Ukrainian refugee views I wont be following any instructions from you and think it appropriate to post a link to balance all of the horses**t about cowardly Ukrainians with a story of one who returned from Finland at the start of the all out invasion by putin's forces last year to defend his homeland from moskovyte imperialism:


    Post edited by macraignil on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,718 ✭✭✭saabsaab




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,390 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    All eyes on Kursk. Slava Ukraini.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,323 ✭✭✭Field east


    I am aware of one situation where a father told his son to go to Ireland with his partner and only child - a son - and that he will ‘represent ‘ the family on the front line. He did not want his only grandson - having no grand daughter also - killed. I thought that that was a solid reason for what the family did. I am sure that there were other similar ‘ arrangements’ as to why men of military age came to Ireland.

    I am aLao aware of another man of military age with a mild mental condition and he would have been ‘useless’ in the army. He will have a lot to contribute when there is ‘ pease ‘ restored with the skills he has.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,323 ✭✭✭Field east


    If true then I see that as a Very positive development. It indicates their strong attachment to their homeland, support their men/ womenfolk on the front lines and elsewhere, meet relatives who stayed and offer support, bring needed supplies, etc, etc, etc, etc.

    so the development h outdoor not be ridiculed or ‘sneezed at’.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,316 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    Which would be a better holiday destination atm.

    Ukraine or Russia?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,964 ✭✭✭jmreire


    Is this along the same lines that Russian Women should give their menfolk a boot up the arse and get rid of Putin? Only someone who has never been within a hundred miles or more of a war zone would write stuff like this, an armchair warrior for example.



This discussion has been closed.
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