Russia - threadbanned users in OP

04-12-2023 09:41AM

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Widdensushi · 04-12-2023 09:41AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121451268#Comment_121451268

Far more of a conspiracy theory that TD's follow voter instructions.....

pixelburp · 04-12-2023 09:43AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121451516#Comment_121451516

Maybe it's as simple as Ireland being as far away from the front as humanly possible. And I daresay panicked, hassled refugees wouldn't be checking out Irish news websites on a regular basis, in case their ambassador was telling 'em to steer clear. If our own immigation services were better run we'd be able to process cases easier and faster - but that's another thread altogether.

"Military age men"... like, ok. Let me be as clear as possible from my own PoV: if the tanks started rolling into Ireland from Newry? I'd have my bags packed and my family leaving this country about 3 hours afterwards if I could. Fúck Ireland in that case: my family's more important than any stupid construct of a "nation state" and I have no interest in fighting for it. And I daresay a lot of folk here would be the same; it's easy to chatter about "military age", or positing that the Ukrainian men here should / could be fighting on the front-lines but why should they?

Perhaps it's as simple as the fact that either the men don't want to separate their family, widow their wives or orphan their children; and if they're not with families maybe, they're just scared and don't want to die in a field somewhere with their guts hanging out. I can get that too. Having finally hit the age where it seems men start getting all sorts of potential fatal conditions, I'm keenly aware of the existential terror of not living long enough to raise my children; I can't imagine that mixed with the threat of your family dying in their sleep as a Russian bomb flattens your apartment.

It's not rocket science, and I think trying to divine chicanery or - vomit - "draft dodging" as someone else mentioned, like these folks are weak or cowards, is the talk of keyboard warriors. there's a debate we can house them, and seems like we can't, but if folks from Ukraine want comfort and solace over here? We should help them in the ways we can.

macraignil · 04-12-2023 10:21AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121451516#Comment_121451516

Do you have any evidence that it is specifically military age men from Ukraine that are traveling to Ireland in big numbers?

The figures I can find show a per capita Ukrainian refugee number that is higher in several eastern European countries. Ireland is English speaking and has lower rates of unemployment than some other countries but implying we are taking in a disproportionate number of military age men from Ukraine should come with some evidence in my opinion or else it just sounds like Orwell road stirring sh*t.

Ireland has taken in a bigger number of Ukrainian refugees per capita than some other countries but I think that this is fair in compensation for our inability to provide military support to their fight against attack by putin's forces and his attempts at empire building. Being a distance away from the front lines may be of comfort to some of the victims of putin's aggression that have fled here.

Igotadose · 04-12-2023 10:25AM

It's just the Ukrainians-go-home bingo we get on this thread every few weeks when there's some RuZZIan-supplied agitprop that makes its way into the news here, plus the endless Irish envy of anyone (refugees in this case) who are perceived as doing a little better than the one doing the perceiving.

Really hilarious to see the complaining about taking longer for Irish free medical care and subsidized housing. Have some perspective.

Paddigol · 04-12-2023 10:33AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121450173#Comment_121450173

Going by this thread and your input on it, you seem particularly invested in this war with plenty of opinions and macho rhetoric to go with it. Why not be a have-a-go hero in real life instead of a keyboard agitator? It's very easy to be brave from behind a laptop.

Sleepy · 04-12-2023 10:41AM

Purely anecdotal but Mrs Sleepy is good friends with a Ukrainian woman who's lived here for a couple of decades and raised her family here, I've heard far more stories of Ukrainian men (like this woman's husband) who've returned to Ukraine to re-enlist than I have of "military aged men" coming here as refugees. And from what I've seen from her helping out the refugees in the local hotel providing emergency accommodation, they're entirely comprised of women and children. I'm not saying there definitely aren't a couple of men there but if there are, their ability to make themselves invisible would be far more use to the SBU than the army!

riddles · 04-12-2023 10:43AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121451643#Comment_121451643

Estimated 15-2000 males over 18 but the department of social welfare or cso will have the detailed figure.

macraignil · 04-12-2023 10:54AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121451719#Comment_121451719

Still no evidence from you then?

roosterman71 · 04-12-2023 10:57AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121451460#Comment_121451460

You'd like it over here - https://www.boards.ie/categories/conspiracy-theories

riddles · 04-12-2023 11:05AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121451773#Comment_121451773

My estimate from CSO figure is 15-20000 I stand be corrected on that

Widdensushi · 04-12-2023 11:11AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121451822#Comment_121451822

15 isn't going to make much of a difference in the war.....

Gatling · 04-12-2023 11:15AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121451710#Comment_121451710

I believe it's less than 50 percent women and Under 16s make up the current Ukrainian population staying in Ireland, and from experience living beside one of the reception centres there is a large population of men from Ukraine 20 - 40 years living here ,

Can't see many volunteering to live in a Roden infested trench without even getting the most basic of equipment for up to 18 months ...

But back in actual reality no-one will be forced to return to Ukraine to join the war against Russia not now not ever ,

They have international protection here , anyone calling for Deportations are living in there own world

macraignil · 04-12-2023 11:29AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121451822#Comment_121451822

Your estimate is not evidence.

riddles · 04-12-2023 11:43AM

Taken from the CSO site look it up

pixelburp · 04-12-2023 11:44AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121451822#Comment_121451822

Still an estimate that holds no truth: and in any case, what if it's 10, 15 or 20 - what's your point? That they should be shipped back to Ukraine and have a weapon shoved in their hands? Or else, what? Jail, death? You're tacitly promoting conscription, basically; presumably you'd also feel similar about the estimated 300,000 Russians who fled after Putin's mobilisation?

Your distaste for "military age men" not being on the front is immaterial versus their right to be here as refugees. You can get into the thick of the morality of whether they should fight - they shouldn't - or indeed whether Ireland has the capacity to house them in a humane fashion, but that they're boys or men has no relevance.

Fighting Tao · 04-12-2023 11:46AM

There are enough immigration threads where far right pushed terms such as “military aged men” could be used, rather than pushing the agenda on this thread.

riddles · 04-12-2023 11:47AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121451998#Comment_121451998

They can support the war in their country in many different ways from safe locations within the Ukraine.

pixelburp · 04-12-2023 11:51AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121452014#Comment_121452014

Maybe they don't feel safe, and don't want to die there through some random drone attack. Maybe they just don't want to. Is this really such an alien concept to grasp, that individuals or families don't want to stay in an active war zone? Or that people aren't equipped to just put down their lives and "support the war", whatever that means.

My own (remote) work colleague left Ukraine from the Western half because despite being "relatively" safe, was still subject to occasional air raid warnings and frequent power outages. He lived in Kyiv but his parents luckily hailed from the West side, so had somewhere to go, even if that meant living off a portable generator for 6+ hours a day.

A desire to want to be safe from harm is not a detestable, objectionable thought - despite what you appear to be implying.

Dohnjoe · 04-12-2023 11:53AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121451719#Comment_121451719

The BBC estimated around 20k fighting age men left Ukraine since the beginning of the conflict to avoid fighting or being drafted. I'd estimate the total would be somewhat higher than that.

However out of a population of 44 million, it represents a relatively small amount. Keep in mind that Ukrainian expats returned to the country to fight at the outbreak (from Poland alone it was estimated "over 20,000")

zv2 · 04-12-2023 11:54AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121450220#Comment_121450220

To be exact; there's a difference between escaping war and escaping conscription.

04-12-2023 11:55AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121451328#Comment_121451328

Ask yourself this: if a Ukrainian born-journalist who moved to the USA at 5 or 6 wrote an article for Time magazine that gave some stats that looked good for Ukraine, would you dismiss it the same way? Oh he's Ukrainian-born so probably made them up?

If not, then you're guilty of the very bias you are putting on Shuster.

How about Ben Wallace, former British Defense minister? "The average age of soliders at the front is over 40"

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/01/ben-wallace-ukraine-counteroffensive-succeeding/

Maybe you can dig into his nationality or sexuality or something and tell us why we can dimiss his claims out of hand. He does look a bit like Gorbachev

Richard Hillman · 04-12-2023 11:56AM

Men with 3+ children were allowed to leave.

And let's be honest, a lot of people who left came from Eastern Ukraine with a large Russian population. Some of them probably lean to the other side. I hear far more Russian spoken here than Ukrainian. I'm no language expert, I've been to Ukraine once but Ukrainian is closer to Polish, and I can pick up a lot of Russian words.

Padre_Pio · 04-12-2023 12:17PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121452050#Comment_121452050

I imagine someone from western Ukraine would struggle to prove they're fleeing war, especially in the past 12 months when the front line is moving further eastwards.

However, someone from western Ukraine who may be immediately drafted and sent to the front line in eastern Ukraine is escaping war.

I quoted the ECJ ruling on the matter above. 101686

Gatling · 04-12-2023 12:23PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121452050#Comment_121452050

No.

04-12-2023 12:27PM

The people who left Ukraine were prime aged working people. It was the old people that stayed behind, and just continued their life best as they could. I wonder if they kept those workers in the country (including the women), set up factories to provide weapons and ammunition for the war. The west would of been able to give them the materials and the instructions. It's like that phrase teach a person to fish ...

I think it would also gave the men at the front more of a reason to fight. When alot of women have left the country, they would be wondering what are they fighting for. Despite on the videos they show family men reuniting with their children etc. The reality is Ukraine is a low fertility country, so alot of them wouldn't have any children.

On the idea of repatriating the Ukrainians now ..well the cat is already out of the bag on that one.

The reality is people are a resource to a country, and to give up any resource during war is foolish.

Padre_Pio · 04-12-2023 12:31PM

It is not Ireland's responsibility to ensure Ukraine has enough soldiers, and it is not legal to return refugees to Ukraine so they are available for conscription.

End of story.

And let's be honest, when Furze suggested this it wasn't some holier-than-thou sentiment for the survival of Ukraine.

mikefromcork · 04-12-2023 12:38PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121452181#Comment_121452181

"The people who left Ukraine were prime aged working people" What an odd phrase to describe people fleeing a war.

Padre_Pio · 04-12-2023 12:40PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121452237#Comment_121452237

Right up there with the phrase "military-age men".

pixelburp · 04-12-2023 12:46PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121452181#Comment_121452181

The people who left Ukraine were prime aged working people.

First of all, feel free to show some facts backing that up. Second: people fleeing a war are not a resource, chattel, cowards or dodgers; they're human beings and shouldn't need reminding of this.

I wonder if they kept those workers in the country (including the women)

And how would "they" have done that exactly? Post the army on the borders, arrest those fleeing? Death? Or maybe conscription into the army as "punishment"?

The whiff of First World pretension of this entire segue is getting more than a little ... well. It's a tad obnoxious.

Russia - threadbanned users in OP

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