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Transport Aircraft

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,034 ✭✭✭sparky42




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,475 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    __



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,923 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    The replacement of the Irish Air Corps’ helicopter fleet will take place in 2028

    Taken from the journal so for that to happen would a order need to be placed in 2025?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,034 ✭✭✭sparky42


    With our normal procurement timeline, it should have been started years ago, even if it starts now I don't see even IOC in 2028.



  • Registered Users Posts: 346 ✭✭Grassy Knoll


    You would assume some thought has been given to this already… 2028 is no length away in terms of these exercises. I presume it will be an AW of some variety again ? What is the view in B/don on their relative reliability, serviceability etc ? Also, do we buy more than the half dozen?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,475 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    AW149 will probably be in the mix.

    But if the plan to dedicate some helicopters to special forces use and heavier military taskings follows through, then by 2028 the Airbus H175M super-medium, will be maturing nicely.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,113 ✭✭✭EchoIndia


    Could I suggest that future helicopter issues be split off into a separate thread?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,034 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Bold assumption that thought has gone into capital purchases, I mean given our track record…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,143 ✭✭✭Psychlops


    That is one ugly looking helicopter. I reckon they dont move from AW & graduate to the AW169.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,468 ✭✭✭Heraldoffreeent


    AW169 is smaller than the 139. AW189 is in the super medium category, but thats a civi spec/Coastguard heli I think, not sure if theres a Mil equivelent.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 346 ✭✭Grassy Knoll


    If I were a betting man I’d say we would go for a life-for-like change to the AW 139m version. Engine commonality with the Pilatius PW engines must be an influential factor, particularly given the technical end staff shortages? The AW 149 is I see touted as an alternative to the Blackhawk and is a more robust machine. However, given we go ‘pimped up civilian spec’ and sometimes nothing wrong with that, the 139 is I’d say IMHO where we go.



  • Registered Users Posts: 302 ✭✭tippilot


    The recommendation was Super Medium and that's what we're looking at so it's bye-bye to the AW139 in any version.

    Realistically, we're looking at either AW149 or H175M if we get the military spec version. (Civilian version of AW149 is the AW189).



  • Registered Users Posts: 45 spark23


    All this "Super Medium" talk isn't particularily helpful when whats needed is an actual medium lift aircraft like EC225 type with the capability to move a platoon via two airframes. Alot of marketing terms being used here at one stage the AW139/149 family were classed as intermediate type aircraft. All the types mentioned so far are just a rehash of the AW139 civie helicopter painted green.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,923 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    The Chinese are the only ones operating a military version and its slightly different to the H175.

    Like you said In a previous post about the tender for the government jet they kept it basic x amount of people and x amount of distance and see what comes back. Hopefully they do the same here x amount of soldiers and cargo carried and x distance it can go. See what the market comes back. The only problem is if they stick to the technical term of super medium that leaves only 2 aircraft. Maybe there mind is set on the aw189 already



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,923 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Are they keeping the term super medium because the DOD/Air Corps have already decided what the replacement helicopters will Be?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,034 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Maybe the fear that Finance and DPER after having collective heart attacks from the sticker price, will kill off any investment? Though in the case of the two extra “139s”, I’m wondering what is the state of the 6?



  • Registered Users Posts: 302 ✭✭tippilot


    Super Medium was the phrase used by the Commission report. It definitely narrows the scope. It's a phrase invented for the offshore industry.

    Rather than a stretched 139 painted green the 149 was designed from the outset as a military spec machine. Unusually and in the opposite manner to the norm it was redesigned as a civilian version, the 189. (We don't want the 189)

    Of the two, H175 or AW149, the 149 is more mature and has sales to Polish, Egyptian and Thai militaries.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,147 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    That 149 looks the biz all right. Had a look at the spec on the company website. Didn't realise how roomy it is. Would have come in dead handy on the recent ARW gig.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,475 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34




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  • Registered Users Posts: 302 ✭✭tippilot


    The EU open tender acquisition process is not required for a state's national security needs. (Normally applied for every government purchase over €140000)

    For defence tenders it can be beneficial to exact a good financial deal, even when a preferred bidder is known in advance.

    If the need is pressing as with the military airlift capability, a state can bypass the tender requirement entirely.

    I still think we'll see a tender here. Even if the 149 is the preferred outcome. The weighted criteria are key to determining the outcome.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,923 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    If they go with either the aw169 or aw189 and are going to have the fleet in place for 2028 they will have to put the order in by 2026 going by bristows court case with CHC there is a minimum lead in time off 2 years to book a slot. Will they buy full military spec or just paint them green.

    If they are not deployed overseas is there a need for full military spec? If the air corps do plan to go overseas maybe have a mix of helicopters for domestic use and then full military spec for missions overseas?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,143 ✭✭✭Psychlops


    I know but thats what I believe they will do, they will stick with AW, AW169 is newer compared to the 139.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,923 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    The Tender Returns for the government jet is in just over 2 weeks. Could we see the Brazilians offer the Embraer 195. The base model comes in at around 50 million euro



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,923 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Correct I was looking at Km range not NM range



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,113 ✭✭✭EchoIndia


    The Lineage 1000 (exec version of the 190) has a range of 4,600nm with 8 pax (Wikipedia). Sounds like a candidate.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 256 ✭✭mupper2


    I would be unusually surprised if anything outside of a Dassault or maybe Gulfstream is chosen and the GS might be out as ifs, GS don't do tenders in anything but USD.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,923 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    I think the state has missed an opportunity to buy an aircraft like a C40 Clipper. The public would not have a bat an eyelid for a aircraft that could provide Medivac, Troop & Cargo transport, Government transport and rescue of Irish citizens any where in the world where commercial aircraft can't go



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,619 ✭✭✭California Dreamer




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,923 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    No issue with that. If a person joins does there agreed service and then moves on its no different than any other job. The COS him self has said the Defence Forces have to evolve to understand people will only join for a set period of their life and then move on as job market has changed



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,147 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Exactly! And the job should be sold on the basis that it gives you a qualification/experience that will give you the edge in your next job....EG apprenticeships etc. That's the way the Brits sell the job to recruits.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,475 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Correct Dohvolle.

    I've been suggesting for a while now to anyone that will listen, that the DF needs a closer, structured relationship with the Universities, VECs and approved training bodies, to embed a culture of volunteerism, workplace immersion, reserve service and talent spotting. Agility and flexibility are the only things that will bring DF manpower into the 21st Century.



  • Registered Users Posts: 256 ✭✭mupper2


    A similar case could be made for a revamped reservist system to leverage the huge amounts of professionals in various industries across the country. Israel, Singapore, South Korea and a few others have reservist units made up of pros whose day jobs are cybersecurity, medical work etc etc..Now I know "they have all have huge national service military's and massive pools of conscripts to cherry pick from" but I think our needs could be refined to what we require.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,475 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    I believe thats precisely the approach that should be taken.

    Could be a little too wild an idea for the defence establishment in this Country yet, however.



  • Registered Users Posts: 256 ✭✭mupper2


    South Korea has chosen the Embraer C-390 as the ROKAF's new transport aircraft.


    In Korean.

    https://www.sedaily.com/NewsView/29YDR0TSDJ



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,923 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    They are starting to clock up the orders now . They have 5 European nations and the Saudis look like they maybe doing a major deal as well



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,147 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    We should buy a couple. Or one at least. Tis superior to the C295 where larger numbers of personnel and equipment need to be transported, so would complement the logistics effort very well IMO.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,147 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    The Koreans aren't all that fond of the Japanese since WW2......

    I think myself that the Kawasaki is pig ugly, whereas the Embraer is a beaut.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,489 ✭✭✭thomil


    Also, I'm not sure if any of Japan's indigenously produced aircraft are actually available for export. With Embraer, that's not the issue, they build primarily for export and have the logistics network in place to support export customers, simply by using the existing processes and partners they use for their civilian regional jets.

    Good luck trying to figure me out. I haven't managed that myself yet!



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,034 ✭✭✭sparky42


    With the sometimes flare up over Pre-WW2 and WW2 history I'm not to be honest, the ROK and Japan have a complicated relationship.



  • Registered Users Posts: 256 ✭✭mupper2


    KAI's MC-X was proposed for long term development, but it's a private venture and not likely to move forward anytime soon.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,923 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Looks like the air corps got of lightly with the Casa & PC12 bump compared to the Canadians




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,923 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    With Tenders for the Government Jet back in next week would Corporate Jets be ready to go or would a slot In the manufacturers production line have to be booked



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,923 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Good to see today on social media the Learjet up and running and giving the people of this state and excellent service.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,475 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Meanwhile in the real world, Avolon Leasing of Shelbourne Road, D4, just placed orders with the two big makers, for 140 No. extended-range narrow-body airliners, at a total cost of €17 Billion. It will bring their total book to over 1,100 aircraft.

    If only somebody was there to join up the thinking in this place.......



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,923 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    So according to the indo the Learjet was Fuc#ed last week again but yet it was able to fly sick kids for operations?




  • Registered Users Posts: 822 ✭✭✭newcavanman


    Like we should have originally ? Or perhaps it's quite convenient if you are qualified on the 189 by the IAC , and when you retire or buy yourself out , there's local employment options with the Coastguard who will be flying the same type. ?

    Just sayin...........



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,923 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    The Greeks have picked the AW139 over the Blackhawk to replace there Pumas. I wonder what the winning criteria was there



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,475 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    While in Australia, the Army is scrapping (literally dismantling and burying) its 45 NH90s in favour of Blackhawks and Sweden has signalled it is also planning for life after theirs.

    The problem child of European design by Committee continues.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,034 ✭✭✭sparky42


    And why aren’t they trying to sell them on I wonder?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 302 ✭✭tippilot


    Because they ain't want to be held liable for anyone else finding out they are a ball of shite.



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