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Transport Aircraft

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,742 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    The Chinese are the only ones operating a military version and its slightly different to the H175.

    Like you said In a previous post about the tender for the government jet they kept it basic x amount of people and x amount of distance and see what comes back. Hopefully they do the same here x amount of soldiers and cargo carried and x distance it can go. See what the market comes back. The only problem is if they stick to the technical term of super medium that leaves only 2 aircraft. Maybe there mind is set on the aw189 already



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,433 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Why can't we forget about super medium and just go large, buy EH101, be done with it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,742 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Are they keeping the term super medium because the DOD/Air Corps have already decided what the replacement helicopters will Be?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,939 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Maybe the fear that Finance and DPER after having collective heart attacks from the sticker price, will kill off any investment? Though in the case of the two extra “139s”, I’m wondering what is the state of the 6?



  • Registered Users Posts: 300 ✭✭tippilot


    Super Medium was the phrase used by the Commission report. It definitely narrows the scope. It's a phrase invented for the offshore industry.

    Rather than a stretched 139 painted green the 149 was designed from the outset as a military spec machine. Unusually and in the opposite manner to the norm it was redesigned as a civilian version, the 189. (We don't want the 189)

    Of the two, H175 or AW149, the 149 is more mature and has sales to Polish, Egyptian and Thai militaries.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,433 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Plus, we have a relatively good working relationship with Leonardo. (who are very keen so sell us anything italian, be it large or small, fixed wing or rotary, normal or subsonic)



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,099 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    That 149 looks the biz all right. Had a look at the spec on the company website. Didn't realise how roomy it is. Would have come in dead handy on the recent ARW gig.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,050 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,433 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Oh but they can, if they want to.

    They decided to buy a C295 transport with no selection process whatsoever.

    You can under international trade rules do a Govt to Govt purchase, where the Irish Govt tells the Italian government "we want to buy 8 of your finest AW149 helicopters please, because of a national security necessity" and the Italian government looks after the details.



  • Registered Users Posts: 300 ✭✭tippilot


    The EU open tender acquisition process is not required for a state's national security needs. (Normally applied for every government purchase over €140000)

    For defence tenders it can be beneficial to exact a good financial deal, even when a preferred bidder is known in advance.

    If the need is pressing as with the military airlift capability, a state can bypass the tender requirement entirely.

    I still think we'll see a tender here. Even if the 149 is the preferred outcome. The weighted criteria are key to determining the outcome.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,742 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    If they go with either the aw169 or aw189 and are going to have the fleet in place for 2028 they will have to put the order in by 2026 going by bristows court case with CHC there is a minimum lead in time off 2 years to book a slot. Will they buy full military spec or just paint them green.

    If they are not deployed overseas is there a need for full military spec? If the air corps do plan to go overseas maybe have a mix of helicopters for domestic use and then full military spec for missions overseas?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,128 ✭✭✭Psychlops


    I know but thats what I believe they will do, they will stick with AW, AW169 is newer compared to the 139.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,742 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    The Tender Returns for the government jet is in just over 2 weeks. Could we see the Brazilians offer the Embraer 195. The base model comes in at around 50 million euro



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,433 ✭✭✭Dohvolle




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,742 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Correct I was looking at Km range not NM range



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,970 ✭✭✭EchoIndia


    The Lineage 1000 (exec version of the 190) has a range of 4,600nm with 8 pax (Wikipedia). Sounds like a candidate.



  • Registered Users Posts: 235 ✭✭mupper2


    I would be unusually surprised if anything outside of a Dassault or maybe Gulfstream is chosen and the GS might be out as ifs, GS don't do tenders in anything but USD.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,742 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    I think the state has missed an opportunity to buy an aircraft like a C40 Clipper. The public would not have a bat an eyelid for a aircraft that could provide Medivac, Troop & Cargo transport, Government transport and rescue of Irish citizens any where in the world where commercial aircraft can't go



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,592 ✭✭✭California Dreamer




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,742 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    No issue with that. If a person joins does there agreed service and then moves on its no different than any other job. The COS him self has said the Defence Forces have to evolve to understand people will only join for a set period of their life and then move on as job market has changed



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,433 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    If we get 15 years out of a recruit or cadet in the modern world, we have done well. You'll see less 21 year bars on parade in decades to come. That's fine once we can turnover enough to replace them all. We can't have the same scale of recruitment expecting each recruit or cadet will stay till pension age. We need high volume of new entrants, from all recruiting streams, to allow for normal wastage.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,099 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Exactly! And the job should be sold on the basis that it gives you a qualification/experience that will give you the edge in your next job....EG apprenticeships etc. That's the way the Brits sell the job to recruits.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,050 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Correct Dohvolle.

    I've been suggesting for a while now to anyone that will listen, that the DF needs a closer, structured relationship with the Universities, VECs and approved training bodies, to embed a culture of volunteerism, workplace immersion, reserve service and talent spotting. Agility and flexibility are the only things that will bring DF manpower into the 21st Century.



  • Registered Users Posts: 235 ✭✭mupper2


    A similar case could be made for a revamped reservist system to leverage the huge amounts of professionals in various industries across the country. Israel, Singapore, South Korea and a few others have reservist units made up of pros whose day jobs are cybersecurity, medical work etc etc..Now I know "they have all have huge national service military's and massive pools of conscripts to cherry pick from" but I think our needs could be refined to what we require.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,050 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    I believe thats precisely the approach that should be taken.

    Could be a little too wild an idea for the defence establishment in this Country yet, however.



  • Registered Users Posts: 235 ✭✭mupper2


    South Korea has chosen the Embraer C-390 as the ROKAF's new transport aircraft.


    In Korean.

    https://www.sedaily.com/NewsView/29YDR0TSDJ



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,742 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    They are starting to clock up the orders now . They have 5 European nations and the Saudis look like they maybe doing a major deal as well



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,099 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    We should buy a couple. Or one at least. Tis superior to the C295 where larger numbers of personnel and equipment need to be transported, so would complement the logistics effort very well IMO.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,433 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Surprising the Koreans didn't go with the almost identical Kawasaki C2 from Japan.

    Embraer have a nice full order book, but they'd want to start delivering if they want to keep the orders rolling in.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,099 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    The Koreans aren't all that fond of the Japanese since WW2......

    I think myself that the Kawasaki is pig ugly, whereas the Embraer is a beaut.



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