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Criminal Justice (Incitement to Violence or Hatred and Hate Offences) Bill 2022 - Read OP

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Comments

  • #2642
    Gussie Scrotch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121438871#Comment_121438871

    Exactly.

    Hate, like love, is indefineable.

    Its an emotion, a feeling...its one thing to one person and something else to another.

    And thats the rock on which this absurd legislation will, ultimately, perish.



  • #2643
    Augme
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,628 ✭✭✭Augme


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121438883#Comment_121438883


    Not someone, but at least 10 people.



  • #2644
    Icyseanfitz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,538 ✭✭✭Icyseanfitz


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121438907#Comment_121438907

    I read the 89 act and it states "intended for direct reception by the general public" and as far as I'm aware the proposed change in legislation stipulates that the "hate speech" can be privately owned with no intention of public dispersion, or a person's own opinion shared online. All that's missing now is "thought crime"



  • #2645
    Gussie Scrotch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121438976#Comment_121438976

    Yes.

    We are approaching "Gulag Archipelago" territory.



  • #2646
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121437996#Comment_121437996

    Not true. The Bill doesn't mention "hate speech" at all.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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  • #2647
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121438519#Comment_121438519

    I answered your question.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #2648
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121438699#Comment_121438699

    Again no. Not true. This Bill has nothing to do with people's opinions.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #2649
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121438736#Comment_121438736

    They probably could but the current legislation has been found unfit for purpose which is part of the reason it needs updating.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #2650
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121438776#Comment_121438776

    Your awareness is incorrect and misinformed "hate speech"is not mentioned in the Bill at all

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #2651
    Frank Bullitt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,259 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439107#Comment_121439107

    Of course you did...



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  • #2652
    Icyseanfitz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,538 ✭✭✭Icyseanfitz


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439122#Comment_121439122

    So why is every news outlet in the country and outside it talking about new "hate speech" laws 🤷‍♂️



  • #2653
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121438883#Comment_121438883

    No -

    A) It would be very unlikely to meet the prosecutable Threshold of the 1989 Act and the 2022 Bill

    B) "Hate Speech" isn't mentioned in the 1989 Act or in the 2022 Bill

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #2654
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121438928#Comment_121438928

    This claim makes no sense. The Incitelement to Prohibition of Hatred Act 1989 never defined hatred and never perished

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #2655
    1800_Ladladlad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,464 ✭✭✭1800_Ladladlad


    https://twitter.com/FreeSpeechIre/status/1730210788101468264

    Its madness...



  • #2656
    suvigirl
    Site Banned Posts: 12,922 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121438976#Comment_121438976

    If something is shared online, it's not private now is it?



  • #2657
    suvigirl
    Site Banned Posts: 12,922 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439158#Comment_121439158

    No definition of hate in current legislation either. Hasn't been a problem has it?



  • #2658
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439142#Comment_121439142

    Because

    A) "Hate speech" is a concept used widely now internationally - Council if Europe though notes there is no specific definition internationally though their committee of ministers describe it as "understood as all types of expression that incite, promote, spread or justify violence, hatred or discrimination against a person or group of persons, or that denigrates them, by reason of their real or attributed personal characteristics or status such as “race”,[2] colour, language, religion, nationality, national or ethnic origin, age, disability, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation. "

    B) The beginning of the legislative process roughly 3 or 4 years ago used the term

    C) The legislation has considerably changed since the beginning of the process

    D) Lazy journalism

    E) Unfortunately a significant portion of the populace argues over legislation that it hasn't even bothered to read

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #2659
    Gussie Scrotch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439154#Comment_121439154

    It resulted in very few convictions....less that a dozen in 20 years if my memory serves me. Mainly due to inability to define hatred.

    So it did, essentially perish. Hence this clumsey and ill concieved attempt to replace it.

    Which, for the same reasons, will also fail.



  • #2660
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439275#Comment_121439275

    Indeed. The 1989 Act isn't fit for purpose which is why it needs updating.

    Can you share the source for your claim about why there were so few convictions please? I am not aware of this claim up until you made it and would like to read more.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #2661
    Gussie Scrotch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439305#Comment_121439305

    Firstly, this is an attempt to replace a bad law with an even worse law.

    Until hatred is defined in the legislation, it will continue to have a coach and horses driven through it. Not only that, it will, inevitably result in a tsunami of litigation from assorted cranks who cannot accept criticism.

    My claim re the limited number of convictions under the 1989 act is rooted in a document submitted by the Law Society to the Dept of Justice a few years ago. I haven't the time nor the inclination to hunt it out right now, but its online somewhere.



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  • #2662
    Icyseanfitz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,538 ✭✭✭Icyseanfitz


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439189#Comment_121439189

    In laymans terms explain to me what this new legislation let's gardai/courts do that they haven't been able to do to date. I'm not being obtuse I just have zero time nor desire to sift through pages of convoluted legal jargon.



  • #2663
    suvigirl
    Site Banned Posts: 12,922 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439332#Comment_121439332

    If you cannot even read the proposed legislation, why would anyone try to explain the differences to you! Not being smart.

    For a start, the new legislation has incitement to violence, which we do not have with existing legislation. For example, any person encouraging, inciting people to go out last Thursday and cause mayhem in Dublin, what can they be charged with?

    Just say, some arsehole is inciting people to damage a direct provision centre, set it on fire, which has been seen, what can we currently charge them with? Nothing is the answer.

    Do you think there should be a law covering those people who are calling for violence against certain minorities?

    Let's imagine someone calling for people to go out and assault travellers, or burn their homes? Do you think we should have laws against that? Because currently we don't



  • #2664
    Icyseanfitz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,538 ✭✭✭Icyseanfitz


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439400#Comment_121439400

    Thanks,

    So what are we basing incitment on? What are the proposed criteria to get prosecuted for incitment? Do I need to be calling people to arms? Or If I share on opinion online? If I make a meme/joke about a situation? If I disagree with a mainstream opinion? Or is just, possibly anything.



  • #2665
    Augme
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,628 ✭✭✭Augme


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439454#Comment_121439454


    Do you not know how the Irish justice system works? It will be responsibility of a judge or jury to determine the answers to those questions.



  • #2666
    lmimmfn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,553 ✭✭✭lmimmfn


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439504#Comment_121439504

    Exactly, it will be up to a judge or jury if wrong think is involved.

    Ignoring idiots who comment "far right" because they don't even know what it means



  • #2667
    Icyseanfitz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,538 ✭✭✭Icyseanfitz


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439504#Comment_121439504

    What could go wrong with that 🤷‍♂️🤦 say if I disagree with something that the political party in charge is pushing, could I not be seen as inciting dissent? "Hate" and "incitment" are very very broad terms for anything judicial.



  • #2668
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439330#Comment_121439330

    Oh right OK so there's no source to the claim of the actual reason you put forward

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #2669
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439517#Comment_121439517

    Disinformation again

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #2670
    Augme
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,628 ✭✭✭Augme


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439548#Comment_121439548


    Under what current law, or proposed Bill, is "inciting dissent" illegal?



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  • #2671
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439548#Comment_121439548

    No

    Nobody cares what you agree or disagree about. This is nothing to do with your thoughts, opinions, feelings.

    We are talking about things "kill all immigrants"

    We are talking about things like what was described by David Norris in the debates leading upto the 1989 Act

    “National Socialist Party: Smash AIDS Blitzkrieg”:


    In Ireland, AIDS is being spread amongst all normal people by the Gay AIDS spreaders and the Junkies. The Government is afraid to tell you the truth. Thousands in Ireland are infected — hundreds of AIDS deaths have been covered up and the number dying will double every six months. Thanks to Queers, Junkies and Negroes visiting here, all of you are now at risk from the AIDS Black Death, right down to the pregnant women ... and a baby can be born with AIDS!!! Horrific. AIDS is as deadly as nuclear radiation. Help us in the National Socialist Party to break the conspiracy of silence among the knee-jerk liberals in Government. Join us. Act Now. Only we will tell you the truth. Only we will save you and your family from this Scourge of God.


    Our “Smash AIDS Blitzkrieg” proposes:


    1. Enforce the Law — ten years for homosexuals;


    2. Enforce stringent AIDS-testing on all immigrants;


    3. Intern all junkies, pushers etc., as Enemies of the People;


    4. Daily testing of the Blood Bank for the AIDS virus;


    5. Suspect Discos, Gay Bars, clubs, etc., to be burned down;


    6. Execution of deliberate AIDS spreaders.


    We were (and are) the first to commence a smash AIDS blitz. We will shortly issue a Guide on AIDS — the Real truth, not politicians' lies! We will tell you how to protect yourself, family, friends. For this, the National Socialist Party requires volunteers, funds, help!


    Contact immediately — most urgent — SAE to:


    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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