Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

aloooof · 21-11-2023 09:15AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121394436#Comment_121394436

I didn't call you a liar. I said what you said wasn't true.

That's not the same thing.

But again you go for the ad-hominem.

Mr Tickle · 21-11-2023 10:57AM

The main benefit I could see to having him as captain for a year would be having someone to take the flack for 12 months if we have a poor year because we're rebuilding. Rather than having Ryan start his tenure under fire, have POM soak that up, then hand it over when things have started to improve.

TRC10 · 21-11-2023 11:15AM

I'd like to see it go to someone like Dan Sheehan. He strikes me as a far more confrontational, self-assured personality than Ryan, who by all accounts is quite introverted (nothing wrong with that), which I think is better for a captain. He's one of the first names on the teams sheet and a genuine World class player, and at 25 he'll be there for the full World Cup cycle. It would be a nice change from what we've always done, which is appoint someone in the twilight of their career (Sexton, Best, POC).

pickarooney · 21-11-2023 12:13PM

Wasn't Ryan captain of every team he ever played for?

phog · 21-11-2023 12:43PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395515#Comment_121395515

Didn't he play for Munster 😎

21-11-2023 01:10PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395266#Comment_121395266

James Ryan has captained Leinster and Ireland multiple times. I'd bank on the coaches and players' leadership groups there to be significantly more knowledgeable on his capabilities as a leader within the squad, rather than people here claiming he's introverted and not assertive enough.

phog · 21-11-2023 01:24PM

I said this before but worth repeating as it seems to have been missed

POM has captained every team he's played including the Lions.

Btw, he lost the captaincy of the Lions team and I don't recall too much controversy about him losing it.

The scaremongering here is unreal

21-11-2023 01:25PM

I really don't see the issue with giving it to POM for a season

Mr Tickle · 21-11-2023 01:53PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395266#Comment_121395266

Personally I think a 2nd or back row is a better choice when possible. I remember we used keep best on longer than I thought he should (My own opinion) and part of that was probably because he's captain.

aloooof · 21-11-2023 02:01PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395765#Comment_121395765

It's not just posters here. I'm sure there were examples of pundits and commentators (often ex-teammates) making that point.

I'm almost sure James Ryan himself has spoken about Lancaster pushing guys in the dressing-room to find their voice more.

Clo-Clo · 21-11-2023 02:12PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395979#Comment_121395979

Best was kept on because people didn't think we had good enough backup, even I was shocked when I seen Kelleher was only called up to the squad in 2020 6 nations. Cronin and Scannell went to World Cup. I can't remember why Herring wasn't in the picture because he has certainly shown he is a quality operator.

Sheehan only came into the team post World Cup as well.

From memory and I could be wrong but wasn't hooker one of the "problem" position mentioned for Ireland after 2019 World Cup and has really turned into one of the strongest now with 3 top quality players and other behind them

21-11-2023 02:28PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396045#Comment_121396045

I've seen those "find the voice" comments specifically about Garry Ringrose - but not on James Ryan.

This perception of him as a very quiet type is not the case, and I'm seen numerous players joking about the fact that his public persona is quite different to how he is behind the scenes. There are quotes out there from Cian Healy, Keith Earls and others saying how he's assertive and vocal as a leader within the team.

This is a guy who made his Irish debut in the summer of 2017, and was described as a member of team's leadership group by 2019, when he was just 23. He first captained Ireland back in 2020.

To underline it all - he's been chosen to captain Ireland (ahead of POM) as recently as August, and has just been made co-captain at Leinster, where he specifically has the responsibility of engaging with the ref when he and Garry are both on the field.

I've huge respect for Peter O'Mahony - he's been a great player for Ireland, a key leader and I hope he's still there for the foreseeable future, but the suggestions that James Ryan isn't ready right now for the Irish captaincy aren't supported by evidence IMO.

aloooof · 21-11-2023 02:35PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396290#Comment_121396290

the suggestions that James Ryan isn't ready right now for the Irish captaincy aren't supported by evidence IMO.

Which, to be clear, is not a suggestion that I've been making.

I've suggested he could possibly get in the ref's ear slightly more frequently, which could lead to better outcomes, however marginal they might be. And I've pointed out that it has been a criticism of his captaincy in the past.

I think that's all pretty fair.

Podge_irl · 21-11-2023 02:35PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121395979#Comment_121395979

It was perhaps part of it, but it was largely because the alternative options simply weren't trusted. Cronin and Scannell were the other hookers in that squad - I think had either of Herring or Kelleher been a few years older it would have been a very different situation.

21-11-2023 02:43PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396336#Comment_121396336

Where specifically has he been criticised for not getting at referees more?

aloooof · 21-11-2023 02:49PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396379#Comment_121396379

It happened as recently as April:

https://www.balls.ie/rugby/rte-pundits-james-ryan-captain-skill-548618

I'm certain it's been a mentioned about him in the past too.

21-11-2023 02:58PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396416#Comment_121396416

Oh right - so Fiona Coghlan and Jamie Heaslip said it based on one game (where Leinster won handily).

Do you think it's at all possible, given James Ryan only actually lost one match in 2023 (and even then they were well ahead when he went off, and his injury was probably the defining moment of that game) that Ryan decides when to plead his case and when it doesn't make sense?

It shouldn't be both ways - people have criticised Sexton in the past for being overly vocal with referees.

I think if you look at Leinster's performances over the past couple of years when Ryan has captained, they haven't struggled to get their share of penalties, or cards for opposition players.

I'd place more stock in that than throwaway quotes to be honest.

sydthebeat · 21-11-2023 03:05PM

no one wants a jamie richie captaining ireland

aloooof · 21-11-2023 03:07PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396490#Comment_121396490

Oh right - so Fiona Coghlan and Jamie Heaslip said it based on one game (where Leinster won handily).

Stephen Ferris too. ;)

Do you think it's at all possible, given James Ryan only actually lost one match in 2023 (and even then they were well ahead when he went off, and his injury was probably the defining moment of that game) that Ryan decides when to plead his case and when it doesn't make sense?

Not only possible, I'd say that's likely. I'd be worried if it wasn't tbh. It still doesn't mean there's be no room for improvement from him in that regard.

It shouldn't be both ways - people have criticised Sexton in the past for being overly vocal with referees.

I think if you look at Leinster's performances over the past couple of years when Ryan has captained, they haven't struggled to get their share of penalties, or cards for opposition players.

I'd place more stock in that than throwaway quotes to be honest.

Well, I mean, you did ask for them... my original point being it wasn't just posters here making that argument about him.

21-11-2023 03:15PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121393483#Comment_121393483

That isn’t kicking the can down the road. That is the literal intentional plan of the irfu. We care just as much about winning 6 nations as the world cup. We are never ever going to sacrifice wins now for a world cup 4/3 or even 2 years from now.

Clo-Clo · 21-11-2023 03:18PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396567#Comment_121396567

Why should we? I don't see why the IRFU or Ireland wouldn't want to win the 6 nations

21-11-2023 03:19PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396574#Comment_121396574

I totally agree with you. I was just reacting to the idea that this isn’t an intentional reasoned thing.

Clo-Clo · 21-11-2023 04:05PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396582#Comment_121396582

POM was more or less talking about retiring post WC. Ireland to me seem to take the first 2 years after WC and then the next 2 years as the build up to WC. This is what was done last WC cycle and they started to talk 2 years out about concentrating on the WC

Now Farrell might just go he doesn't care and name POM as a captain even if he is retiring at the end of this season. Bit potentially name a co-captain like he did before with POM/Sexton

Or he might go with a captain now to go for the next 2 seasons.

What we don't know is what is POM plans. Personally it makes no difference to me as a fan which player gets the captains role. I would hope with DuPont out of the France team we would see a way to beat Frnce in France, going onto win a 6 nations.

Edit: would it be nice to see POM as a great servant of rugby to get it, of course

blackwhite · 21-11-2023 04:59PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396341#Comment_121396341

Did Herring not get a call-up in 2019 as an injury replacement for Cronin?

eagle eye · 21-11-2023 05:03PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121392999#Comment_121392999

He's too injury prone.

21-11-2023 07:06PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121396534#Comment_121396534

Yeah, that's fair enough, I hadn't really seen those comments before, or ever considered it a significant weakness of his captaincy.

To me - the most significant point around this is that a decision to give it to O'Mahony now would be an implication that it isn't going to be Ryan long term - otherwise it just makes more sense to give it to Ryan now. I'm repeating myself now though.