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HURLING TEAM OF THE YEAR 2023

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135

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    #62
    adrian522
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 16,112 Mod ✭✭✭✭adrian522


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120911708#Comment_120911708

    LOL - Failed to show up in the biggest game 2 years in a row, Not poor?

    I could certainly see an argument for either Kelly or TJ Reid in the team of the year in the half forward line, bit of a toss up, but your reasoning is hilarious I have to say.



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    #63
    Rosita
    Registered Users Posts: 3,902 ✭✭✭Rosita


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120911496#Comment_120911496

    Free takers are always top scorers, so what? And frankly his quality of play has not always been of a super high standard. His slippage has been clear for quite some time.

    Him getting possession has been a big event for Kilkenny for years but he's constantly bottled up and struggling to move the ball on. Yes, he gets fouled but lots of players get fouled and win frees but nobody makes heroes of them for it. Reid was a very good hurler but he has been living on his reputation for several years.

    All Stars don't always tell the story either. In reality Kilkenny are guaranteed an All Ireland semi final appearance every year. Get to a final and you probably have 3/4 All Stars at a minimum. Reid will get 10-12 points a game from frees and is at the stage where people seem to ignore the zero contribution from play or even missed frees (he missed a handy one in the All Ireland final for example).

    Now, if like Kilkenny last weekend you go into an All Ireland final and come out with only a handful of points from play from your starting forward line the frees are probably especially valuable. But they're still frees. Patrick Horgan is a far livelier and greater scoring threat from play than Reid, and is just as good on frees. But he's not guaranteed to be in the All Ireland series every year as he would if hurling in Leinster.

    Reid was a very very good hurler. But extraordinary claims of his ability requires extraordinary evidence to back them up. There's not much of that in his performances in recent years particularly.



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    #64
    evolvingtipperary101
    Registered Users Posts: 4,163 ✭✭✭evolvingtipperary101


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120911754#Comment_120911754

    Wilful distortion of what was written or an inability to read - take your pick

    Kelly scored seven points from PLAY in a final against the champions last year…

    Kelly scored 3-4 from PLAY against Dublin this year - Reid never scored 3-4 from play and if he did it was against Westmeath



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    #65
    Rosita
    Registered Users Posts: 3,902 ✭✭✭Rosita


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120911754#Comment_120911754

    I'm 2023 Kelly failed to "show up" in the biggest game of the year?

    He scored a point more than Reid from play in that game and it's considered not showing up? Where does that leave Reid? Lol is right



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    #66
    mercury16
    Registered Users Posts: 89 ✭✭mercury16


    Quoting solely points from play as the only stat is a misrepresentation of the game and a forward.

    How many balls went into a forward?

    How many did the forward win?

    Did the forward setup a score?

    Was the forward fouled for a free?


    Reality is, if Gillane gets played, 7 balls, and wins 4 of them and is fouled for all 4 leading to 3 frees, 1 penalty and Hegarty scores all of the placed balls. That’s 1-03 for Hegarty, nothing for Gillane, and limerick have scored nothing from play.

    is gillane playing poorly, I think not. He’s earned 1-03, and he’s won 4/7 of all balls in to him. But he’s scored nothing.


    Now add in, the balls he has not won, has he stopped his man making a clean offload? .

    has he stopped s different back making s clean offload?

    how many blocks and hooks does he have?


    The devils in the detail. That is what the real value of a forward is. That is what Kinerk looks at?


    now look at a player, e.g. TJ Reid through that lens!



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    #67
    adrian522
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 16,112 Mod ✭✭✭✭adrian522


    I think using stats only as a measure of how to judge performance is something for people who either don't watch the games or don't understand them. You have to watch the games to understand the performances.

    You can't judge everything based on scoring stats on wikipedia.

    I know teams are using stats a lot more these days but there are nuances in the game that can't be captured in a spreadsheet.

    Anyway, I'm done arguing the point on this thread.



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    #68
    robbiezero
    Registered Users Posts: 4,376 ✭✭✭robbiezero


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120911444#Comment_120911444

    I thought he was excellent in last years AI.



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    #69
    evolvingtipperary101
    Registered Users Posts: 4,163 ✭✭✭evolvingtipperary101


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120911936#Comment_120911936

    I saw Tony Kelly and TJ numerous times this year and last - I know what I saw.

    no comparison in Terms of pace, accuracy off the run, scores from play, and running off the ball.TK is in prime. TJ is an old player who is not what he was. I don’t see how that can be argued against. TK regularly scores heavily from play. TJ does not. A great performance from a forward involves a lot of scores from play - unless we’re misusing the word great - it’s a high standard. there’s no debating that. It’s not a stat.



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    #70
    Freneys Treasure
    Registered Users Posts: 164 ✭✭Freneys Treasure


    Why do a couple of posters keep mentioning performances over previous seasons but when it suits them remind everyone that the thread is for this season only? 

    Here are some ratings of Reid's performance in last years final that some posters are including in their evidence that Reid doesn't do enough in finals:

    Mirror.ie: "Imperious bar a 65th minute decision to go for goal when a point would have put Kilkenny level. Didn’t score from play, but nailed nine frees and had just one wide. Has no peers in terms of use of the ball. His fielding was exceptional. Kept Kilkenny afloat in the first half. Directly assisted eight points and made the second goal: 9"

    examiner.ie: Another terrific performance by a man who will likely be shortlisted for hurler of the year. No score from play but that didn’t tell a thing about what he contributed in terms of assists and general play. A phenom. 9 

    Irish Times: Exceptional performance. Faultless over his nine frees and had either the last pass or won primary possession for another 1-6. Kept Kilkenny in the game when they had every reason to drift out of it. Rating: 9

    Not bad for a player that is "constantly bottled up and struggling to move the ball on"

    Leaving Reid out of the team of year is not a controversial or even "brave" decision in my opinion but the great effort some posters are going to belittle his previous achievements and reduce him to being simply a free taker is absolute nonsense. There is no shortage of ex-inter-county hurlers and pundits who have referred to Reid as the best ever or at least being in the conversation of the best ever and I'd value their opinion over that of a poster who learned hurling from Wikipedia



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    #71
    evolvingtipperary101
    Registered Users Posts: 4,163 ✭✭✭evolvingtipperary101


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120912123#Comment_120912123

    Why do people talk about last year? Then goes straight into last year…



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    #72
    Rosita
    Registered Users Posts: 3,902 ✭✭✭Rosita


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120912123#Comment_120912123

    You value the opinions of ex-inter country hurlers but still quoted five or six newspaper journalists to bolster your point? Not sure that's consistent.



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    #73
    Charlie69
    Registered Users Posts: 1,779 ✭✭✭Charlie69


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120911936#Comment_120911936

    You've said it all there really, it's a lack of understanding . I doubt if these people ever played the game.



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    #74
    Rosita
    Registered Users Posts: 3,902 ✭✭✭Rosita


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120911922#Comment_120911922

    That all not unreasonable but the problem is when you have an enormous reputation then expectations move beyond blocking and hooking for a forward.



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    #75
    evolvingtipperary101
    Registered Users Posts: 4,163 ✭✭✭evolvingtipperary101


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120911922#Comment_120911922

    I agree with this. He’s a bonner type player for the second half of his career



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    #76
    breezy1985
    Registered Users Posts: 24,781 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    I agree with people saying it's not all about stats. Mtly team have played against Kelly and TJ this year and honestly I sh@t myself a lot more when TJ got the ball than when Kelly did.

    My team are going to play against Lynch on Friday and I'm just gonna bring a colostomy bag.

    No better way to judge that how much you fear them.



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    #77
    evolvingtipperary101
    Registered Users Posts: 4,163 ✭✭✭evolvingtipperary101


    Scoring for a forward is now a stat - Jesus wept. Shocking nonsense on this thread

    scoring is the number one job of a forward. The most important job. It dictates who wins. It captures imaginations and fills stadiums.

    Whoever scores the most wins.

    you’d despair at the level of understanding of the game



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    #78
    LMK
    Registered Users Posts: 220 ✭✭LMK


    Quaid

    Lawlor Morrissey Nash

    Byrnes C.Mannion Hayes

    O'Donovan O'Donoghue

    O'Donnell Kelly Morrissey

    Gillane (HOTY) Whelan Cody



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    #79
    hurlaway
    Registered Users Posts: 97 ✭✭hurlaway


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120913707#Comment_120913707

    Funny that you don't apply this what is the number one job logic when it suits I.e when your talking about a goalkeeper



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    #80
    evolvingtipperary101
    Registered Users Posts: 4,163 ✭✭✭evolvingtipperary101


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120923036#Comment_120923036

    Funny that the logic for the position of goal keeper is different for a forward. Jaw dropping, I know



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    #81
    breezy1985
    Registered Users Posts: 24,781 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120913707#Comment_120913707

    No I would despair at the absolute primary school level of thinking some adults have about sport. Ya whoever scores the most wins but equally whoever stops the opposition from scoring wins.

    On top of that the idea of traditional 1 to 15 roles for players is well gone. A #5 just got top scorer in an All Ireland final. Also forwards are tackling and turning over as much as defenders now.

    Next time Tipp need a manager I hope you get the job cause ye would win nothing with that attitude.



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    #82
    evolvingtipperary101
    Registered Users Posts: 4,163 ✭✭✭evolvingtipperary101


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120923256#Comment_120923256

    None of that applies to the primary role of a forward.

    You’re taking about things completely unrelated to the context of my point.

    Mannion got MOTM yesterday because of his scores/accuracy. That’s zenith of forward okay.

    People forgetting that TJ does plenty of drifting into FF line. Sifts in between both lines



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    #83
    hurlaway
    Registered Users Posts: 97 ✭✭hurlaway


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120923156#Comment_120923156

    You know exactly what I mean lad



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    #84
    Stationmaster
    Registered Users Posts: 828 ✭✭✭Stationmaster


    Quaid

    Nash Lawlor Morrissey

    Byrnes Conlon Hayes

    D O'Donovan W O'Donoghue

    Kelly O'Donnell T Morrissey

    Gillane Whelan Cody


    Unlucky to miss out - TJ (one of the best influencers of a game I've ever seen), Butler (had a good year but I couldn't not include any of the 3 I've included in the full back line) and Lynch (had some influence on the the two biggest games of the year for Limerick).


    You'll never get 100% consensus on something like this but the craic is in the debating of it!



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    #85
    Charlie69
    Registered Users Posts: 1,779 ✭✭✭Charlie69


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120925951#Comment_120925951

    Absolutely, you’ll never get 100% consensus as you say and your selection is fair enough, it’s when people are talking nonsense about one of the best players to play the game having feet of clay there’s a bit of credibility issue.



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    #86
    evolvingtipperary101
    Registered Users Posts: 4,163 ✭✭✭evolvingtipperary101


    Lar Corbett's round up of the year:

    1. Nickie Quaid (Limerick)

    2. Mike Casey (Limerick)

    3. Dan Morrissey (Limerick)

    4. Barry Nash (Limerick)

    5. Diarmaid Byrnes (Limerick)

    6. John Conlon (Clare)

    7. Kyle Hayes (Limerick)

    8. Darragh O’Donovan (Limerick)

    9. David Fitzgerald (Clare)

    10. Morrissey (Limerick)

    11. Cian Lynch (Limerick)

    12. Shane O’Donnell (Clare)

    13. Aaron Gillane (Limerick)

    14. Conor Whelan (Galway)

    15. Eoin Cody (Kilkenny)

    Hurler of the Year – Aaron Gillane

    Ref of the Year – John Keenan

    Next YEAR?: Limerick for Liam yet again.



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    #87
    adrian522
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 16,112 Mod ✭✭✭✭adrian522


    Hurling All-Stars 2023: Limerick lead the way with seven awards as TJ Reid honoured again


    https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/11/16/hurling-all-stars-2023-limerick-lead-the-way-again-with-seven-awards/



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    #88
    breezy1985
    Registered Users Posts: 24,781 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Barry Nash is a shocking omission. Should be in the mix for player of the year ahead of Byrnes.

    Other than that it's hard to argue anyone who missed out "definitely" deserves one.



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    #89
    Charlie69
    Registered Users Posts: 1,779 ✭✭✭Charlie69


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120942816#Comment_120942816

    Jaysus Lar was way off .



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    #90
    breezy1985
    Registered Users Posts: 24,781 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121375634#Comment_121375634

    I did think they would fiddle with it a bit and have WOD at 6 and get O'Donnell in.

    Quaid was probably that one amazing save away from getting an All Star.



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    #91
    evolvingtipperary101
    Registered Users Posts: 4,163 ✭✭✭evolvingtipperary101


    Baffling selections at 1, full back, and in the corner. Both Galway and Dublin conceded less in Leinster than Kilkenny. Conceded a whopping 21 points in the second half of the all ireland final. Limerick have the best players in the country at 1-9 and it's not close.

    And a glorified free taker at 11 - great player in the past but it's over at intercounty level a good while now. No score from play in the semi final or the final... TJ Reid is nowhere near Tony Kelly, Lynch, Donal Burke over the last year. No score from play from TJ in the semi or the final.... let that sink in... and he gets an all star... AN ALL STAR .... a forward who doesn't score from play gets an all star?... that's all star stuff... mother a god... what is going on?!?!?!

    That pointed out, Happy Birthday, TJ.

    p.s. Barry Nash got a point in the final.



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