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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 32,766 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Leinster clearly don’t have the deepest set of talent in Europe. it’s very arrogant to claim so when you see the recent record

    Leinster are absolutely in contention for the deepest talent pool in a squad in Europe. I mean, their recent record includes losing by 1 point in a SF to the URC Champions with a complete shadow 15.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Yes they are in the conversation. But so are La Rochelle and Toulouse to name two, the French teams would claim the Top 14 means they have stronger squad to deal with the rigours of that league.

    Based on last season alone La Rochelle have to win that honour, they won Europe and got to the Top 14 final losing in the last minute



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,384 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    "SHADOW 15"

    Leinster Rugby vs. La Rochelle Line-Ups: 

    Leinster: H Keenan; J O’Brien, G Ringrose, R Henshaw, J Lowe; R Byrne, J Gibson-Park; A Porter, D Sheehan, T Furlong; R Molony, J Ryan (capt); C Doris, J van der Flier, J Conan

    Replacements: R Kelleher, C Healy, M Ala’alatoa, J Jenkins, R Baird, L McGrath, C Frawley, C Ngatai.

    All the bolded players were involved in that URC semi-final.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,209 ✭✭✭Mr Tickle


    John Porch for Connacht too for the sake of completeness.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,389 ✭✭✭clsmooth


    So 11 starters the following week didn’t start that game? And VDF came on as an early sub so actually 12 of the 15 didn’t start. Would that not be considered a shadow 15?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,384 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    No, a shadow 15 is when all 15 are not starters, at least that's how I would interpret the meaning.

    4 starters and the entire bench is 12 of 23, while it is a weakened or rotated team, I wouldn't call it a shadow 15, to me that'd be the second choice in every position.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 32,766 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I'm not really bothered with the semantic argument. The point regarding backing up the depth of the Leinster squad stands.

    There is nothing "clear" about who has the deepest squad in Europe, you could make arguments for Toulouse, LAR and Leinster and I think claiming it is Leinster is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    I think the poster was refering to the game v Munster in the semi final of the URC



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Is McFarland looking after the scrum/maul in Ulster? I never knew what his specialty is



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 440 ✭✭conquestscarer


    Leinster team

    1 International Starter 2 International Starter 3 International Starter

    4 Club player 5 International starter

    6 International Starter Nominated for 6 nations POT 8 International Bench 7 International Starter and reigning WPOTY/EPOTY

    9 International Starter 10 International Bench (3rd choice)

    12 International Starter 13 International starter

    14 International Bench 15 International Starter Nominated 6 nations for POT 11 International Starter

    La Rochelle Team

    1 International Bench 2 International Bench(3rd choice) 3 International Starter

    4 Glorified Journeyman 5 International Captain

    7 International Player 8 International Player EPOTY 6 International Bench(3rd/4th choice)

    9 Club Player 10 International Bench(3rd choice)

    12 International Starter 13 International Starter

    11 Club Player 15 Club Player 14 Club Player

    I don't think its particularly arrogant to say Leinster's squad is deeper when it's broken down in this manner. The fact is a coaches should be able to get more than the sum of it's parts. If Saracens from a few years ago were still around I wouldn't argue this point but they're not so it must be said.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    and people say ROG is wrong when talking about people in Ireland talking down about La Rochelle

    At end of last year La Rochelle won second European trophy in a row and got to the Top 14 final. They are a better team over the last 24 months than anyone other in Europe.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 36,368 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    9. One man's 'club player' is another man's 'world cup winner'.



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 44,833 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    TBF Kerr Barlow was injured for the final, and im assuming that is the team the poster is naming

    i love the way the 11, 14 and 15 are "club players" with 54 international caps between them though



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 440 ✭✭conquestscarer


    I'm referring to what they currently are. Nothing stopping Dulin, Rhule, or Leyds from playing internationally at the moment.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,540 ✭✭✭ersatz


    Provincial loyalty is admirable but Leinster have underperformed with the majority of one of the worlds best test teams on their books. 1 European cup in a decade is a terrible record for that team. I am amazed that Cullen is still above criticism given the results over his time in charge. Great PR but otherwise a fairly modest performance. He's been out thought how many times by two other Irish coaches?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,729 ✭✭✭Dave_The_Sheep


    Cullen gets plenty of criticism, here of all places. And fairly so.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,540 ✭✭✭ersatz


    Maybe around here but he gets a pass in the press. Leinster are generally above criticism in the media, unsurprisingly given that they win almost all their games. When they do I think the main focus of it has been soaked up by Lancaster as he is the face of the rugby, on field coach, etc. If I remember correctly Cullen was mildly criticised for the tone of his comments after the most recent loss to LAR, some were offended by his seemingly cavalier attitude, just another day at the office kind of thing. But much more often the coverage is trying to understand how these two odd balls are such rugby coaching geniuses.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    They aren't the same things. You can have the best 23 in Europe whilst not having the best squad in Europe. I would wager that La Rochelle would struggle with 4-5 key absences more than Toulouse or Leinster simply because there's more of a drop off for them to their back ups (and the knock on of potentially bringing a third choice player onto the bench). They've managed their squad quite well and have done well on the injury front. But we can see this season the drop off for them when the test players are absent.

    With that said, it's pointless comparing teams through the "international starter" etc. criteria. There is far more competition and depth in France than here. If the La Rochelle team played in Ireland instead of a province, every one of them would be capped and a lot of them would have been in the RWC squad.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Cullen has done the vast majority of media over the last few years; he takes nearly all the pre/post match interviews/press conferences. Lancaster did the onfield stuff but, that aside, I'm not sure he soaked up much in terms of the focus. It was very much the case that Lancaster wanted to move away from that element of the role when he joined Leinster after the abuse he took in England.

    I wouldn't say he gets no criticism. He took a lot of flak when he defended the Leinster set up following criticism by the likes of Wigglesworth from both punters and the media. The fact is that he's a fairly open and convivial individual which lends itself to good media relationships. Also, generally speaking, the Irish media don't go after the provincial coaches unless they really screw up (or after they've departed).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Not sure what media you are listening to but from the start of the season the media more or less tell us to ignore any good results for Leinster because unless they win both in Europe and the URC it is a disaster for Leinster

    Once they lose they pull the entire club to pieces. At this stage I think leinster are just used to it. It was the same when winning the league(whichever named version it was at that stage) it was always a well done you won the league but you didn't win Europe so it was a bad season for Leinster

    Post edited by Clo-Clo on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 138 ✭✭Leslie Purkiss


    Seems to be a push in the media for POM to get the captaincy. His agent has a lengthy payroll I hear 😉



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,540 ✭✭✭ersatz




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,195 ✭✭✭TRC10


    I'd like to see us for once go with a captain that won't be a pensioner at the next World Cup.

    But Irish rugby isn't very good at learning from It's mistakes so we probably won't



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭Must love hardship


    It would be a terrible call.

    4 years ago Ireland went to a world cup with a 36 year old captain about 2 years past his best. And hadn't enough depth in his position.

    This year Ireland went to a world cup with a 38 year old Captain past his best and left him on in for 80 minutes.

    Pom would be 38 by the next World Cup. He is past his best now let alone in 4 years time. It would be foolish to make the same mistake for the 3rd world cup in a row and expect a different result.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,885 ✭✭✭Downlinz


    POM would be a great call for a short term captaincy and give others time and space to assert their claim.

    There isn't really another candidate decision considering Henderon and Ryan are provincial captains competing for each others place.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 138 ✭✭Leslie Purkiss


    what is the point of having him in the squad, let alone captain. Give it to someone that will be a key player at the next WC. Let them grow into the role now.

    POM is way past it. He couldn’t raise a gallop against NZ.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,228 ✭✭✭✭phog


    If in 2023/24 Ireland are appointing a captain for the RWC 2027 then POM probably wouldn't be near the shortlist. If they're appointing a captain for the short term then he's an obvious choice.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 32,766 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    The "media push" is basically Dennis Leamy said it.

    I would be incredibly surprised if he was chosen.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,384 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    Rory Best was 37 for the last World Cup. It’’s mental that the lesson wasn’t learned then. To do it a second time was stupid. If they do it again it would be ridiculous.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,384 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    I’d make O’Mahony captain for the 2024 6 Nations and the South Africa tests if they feel he would be a guaranteed starter, but for the Autumn Internationals they should move on to a new captain and promote a few new players at the expense of the players coming to the end of their careers.



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