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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 34,036 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    We don't need a foreign beefy second row now we have McCarthy. Which is more or less what the policy is for.

    Also one of the biggest issues in both finals was the kicking of our previously foreign signed back 3 player. The Leinster squad is and was good enough to win the last two championships.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,009 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    I'd say Leinster will win it this year with Nienaber. Lancaster's a brilliant coach for developing a squad and doing very well in the regular season, but his Leinster team weren't good at stepping up when they were taken out of their comfort zone, which is a big problem in high level knockout games.

    The Provinces needed big foreign signings to win in Europe years ago, but Ireland were, what, 5th, 6th, 7th in the world rankings back then. Now the Provinces' go-to players from the top two or three Test sides are actually Irish, or Irish-qualified at any rate. At least that's how it is at Leinster; they have 10 or more starters for a very good Ireland team. You couldn't have said the same in 2009.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    The 15 that took to the field v La Rochelle last year was all Irish qualified if I remember.

    Leinster could of gone and signed an Ezebeth or a big star like that, Im sure they have the money if they needed it but im sure someone in the IRFU would have said that would hamper big Joe. As luck would have it he got injured most of the season and wasn't in a position to be the impact off the bench

    Plus, keep Ryan on that pitch...who knows



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    I'm less interested in what specific provinces need, more interested in seeing the IRFU loosening the restrictions a tiny bit, with a view to increased European success across all provinces. The latter epoch of the Nucifora era was well-intended, maybe even financially forced, but it evidently left outcomes too close to chance, and nothing but recent memories of knock-out failure in the heads of the national squad.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Sorry just seen this, yes I agree. But when Leinster went to sign someone they would have asked for a Ezebeth type World star and the IRFU would have said no, Big Joe is coming. Was that better for Ireland? of course.

    The model at the moment of signing decent quality players like Ngatai etc I think is working. The IRFU can't rival the French clubs for a big star and they shouldn't, that money can be used for future Irish stars



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,009 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    McCarthy benched versus the Sharks and Munster - the two games before the Euro Final. I think they just preferred Jenkins. It remains to be seen whether that has changed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,026 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    To win it in reality we will need to change the current overseas policy which seems to be not allowing leinster to sign a top quality international player. At the moment it is clear to me, the strategy is for Leinster to sign decent pro's but not big names international. 

    I think the reason for that is because, obvisouly the Leinster players make up the bulk of the Irish set up. They need their signings to be available during / around the International window.

    Signing a top quality international, who would also be away, would leave them even further stretched during that period.

    Post edited by aloooof on


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 34,036 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Not to mention the Leinster playing budget is already gonna be pretty hefty.

    We have a stellar squad, I don't think not being able to sign a top tier NIQ is much of an excuse/reason.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    McCarthy missed a large part of last season so my assumption was Jenkins was preferred because of his experience. He only got 8 games last season and 285 mins



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    The games during the international windows are minimal these days in URC. Those games anyway in the URC and if they are bringing in a big name it would be for the big European games at the end of the season.

    As I said in my post I don't think Ireland need to do that, the model is working as is.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 34,036 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    It may technically remain to be seen if McCarthy is ahead of Jenkins, but I would be absolutely flabberghasted if it was not the case. It was a poor selection in the final.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Poor selection now based on McCarthy's progress, at the time I didnt hear many grumbles. Especially as Jenkins was only supposed to be on to close out the game and in reality would have come on with Ryan.

    I'm sure moving forward for Ireland and Leinster McCarthy is going to get more minutes and will be interesting to see how the other young lads at Munster get on because a couple of crackers in their squad



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,026 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    It absolutely is a consideration tho; take Alaalatoa, started all 4 of the games around 6 Nations time. Fardy a perfect example of that type of player.

    Add in Podge's point about the playing budget already too and it makes sense.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,009 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    Kitshoff, Snyman, de Allende, Vermeulen?

    They're a lot more high profile than Rhule, Leyds, Sclavi, Seuteni. I don't think I'd heard of the last two before they came to prominence with La Rochelle.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭ersatz


    I tend to agree with this. The coaches taking a hard look at the gameplan and the squad will inevitably reflect on their failure to get past the ABs when it mattered. We can beat them but on the biggest stage we failed. I don't imagine Farrell et al will console themselves with 'but for Barrett's milky white thigh or the ball bouncing over Sheehan's head'...they'll say what do we need to change to win the next time. That will start sooner rather than later. Does it mean a change in the game plan and tactics? if it does it may mean more new players involved.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,009 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    There was a fair bit of talk at the start of the season that McFarland has taken Ulster as far as he could - even that he'd have been replaced if they had the money to pay him off. I wonder if he did finish up with Ulster whenever his contract ends would he be brought into the Ireland set-up. Ulster's scrum and maul have consistently been excellent during his tenure. He would probably be an upgrade on John Fogarty.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 457 ✭✭conquestscarer


    The Leinster need to sign Eben Etzebeth to win in europe is utter bollix. The utter arrogance of playing the exact same tactics with no changes other than "being more Physical"(Not the reason we lost in 2022). Leo and Lancaster had the deepest set of talent in europe for 2 years in a row and didn't manage to get them over the line in either of the competitions last year. I hope Nienaber comes in and brings in a different attitude, for example the arrogance of pretending the scrum doesn't matter so you can have an extra player running lines out the back. I've seen some good tactical decisions this season to counteract line speed and that could be the difference, also McCarthy is a dog at the ruck which we didn't have last year.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,819 ✭✭✭Dubinusa




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,819 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    It's funny that we've lost to LA Rochelle on the trot. Each time different aspects to the loss. But it still remains, that Leinster fall short and usually through their own fault. For me, Jenkins was very poor last year and didn't have any impact. Lowe was poor and Molony looked wrecked at about 60 mins.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    All of the above didn’t sign for Leinster and I was specifically discussing Leinster

    Leyds was in the Bok squad in 2019 and was told he wasn’t the type of player they wanted so hardly an unknown. I don’t watch enough of French rugby to tell on the others


    Maybe read what I posted first before heading off on a rant.

    The discussion was if the provinces should spend big money on foreign players to win Europe, so maybe read back and explain what it “utter bollix”?

    Leinster clearly don’t have the deepest set of talent in Europe. it’s very arrogant to claim so when you see the recent record



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,009 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    Current NIQs:

    Connacht: Shamus Hurley-Langton, Santiago Cordero

    Leinster: Michael Ala'alatoa, Jason Jenkins, Charlie Ngatai

    Munster: Jean Kleyn, R.G. Snyman, Alex Nankivell

    Ulster: Steven Kitshoff, Dave Ewers

    I believe Ewers and Hurley-Langton can qualify on residency, although the former would be 38 by then so the chances of him actually representing Ireland are virtually nil. The others appear to be tied to other countries.

    If Leinster easily make playoffs and their NIQs don't make their strongest XXIII for games at the business end of the season I think there's a strong argument that it'd be better for Irish rugby if they didn't have any of their current three NIQs.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 34,036 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Leinster clearly don’t have the deepest set of talent in Europe. it’s very arrogant to claim so when you see the recent record

    Leinster are absolutely in contention for the deepest talent pool in a squad in Europe. I mean, their recent record includes losing by 1 point in a SF to the URC Champions with a complete shadow 15.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Yes they are in the conversation. But so are La Rochelle and Toulouse to name two, the French teams would claim the Top 14 means they have stronger squad to deal with the rigours of that league.

    Based on last season alone La Rochelle have to win that honour, they won Europe and got to the Top 14 final losing in the last minute



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,441 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    "SHADOW 15"

    Leinster Rugby vs. La Rochelle Line-Ups: 

    Leinster: H Keenan; J O’Brien, G Ringrose, R Henshaw, J Lowe; R Byrne, J Gibson-Park; A Porter, D Sheehan, T Furlong; R Molony, J Ryan (capt); C Doris, J van der Flier, J Conan

    Replacements: R Kelleher, C Healy, M Ala’alatoa, J Jenkins, R Baird, L McGrath, C Frawley, C Ngatai.

    All the bolded players were involved in that URC semi-final.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,209 ✭✭✭Mr Tickle


    John Porch for Connacht too for the sake of completeness.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,551 ✭✭✭clsmooth


    So 11 starters the following week didn’t start that game? And VDF came on as an early sub so actually 12 of the 15 didn’t start. Would that not be considered a shadow 15?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,441 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    No, a shadow 15 is when all 15 are not starters, at least that's how I would interpret the meaning.

    4 starters and the entire bench is 12 of 23, while it is a weakened or rotated team, I wouldn't call it a shadow 15, to me that'd be the second choice in every position.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 34,036 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I'm not really bothered with the semantic argument. The point regarding backing up the depth of the Leinster squad stands.

    There is nothing "clear" about who has the deepest squad in Europe, you could make arguments for Toulouse, LAR and Leinster and I think claiming it is Leinster is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    I think the poster was refering to the game v Munster in the semi final of the URC



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Is McFarland looking after the scrum/maul in Ulster? I never knew what his specialty is



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