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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭Must love hardship


    I wouldn't be suprised if there was an Ireland A v England A match during the 6 nations the weekend of the 8th /9th of March.

    There is no URC that weekend I believe or premiership now with less teams in the league.

    England A play Portugual on the 25th of February. So might make sense to try and play ireland a week or 2 later.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Text box froze and won't let me edit the above...Boards going from strength to strength!

    .....There will be a training camp in December more than likely and peripheral guys need to be showing form in the next few weeks at the latest if they want to be involved.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,063 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    If we don't have better options in the 2nd row by 2027 than 35 year olds Beirne and Henderson then it will be because we haven't begun developing them in the next year or two

    Ban billionaires



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    The punishment Beirne subjects his body to, I can't see him still playing at 35. Henderson might be, but with so much talent coming through at lock country-wide, he's unlikely to be our best option if he is.

    Personally I'm very optimistic about what a shake-up might bring to the national setup. On the one hand, the current crop have grand slams in them, and on their day they can beat anyone on the planet convincingly. On the other hand, they underperformed in the RWC QF, and are largely built around a province who have likewise not shown the best version of themselves in knock-out games in the last five years.

    One major change is obviously forced, given Sexton's retirement. But I'd be surprised if there aren't a few more changes in what's considered our "best 23" by the end of the Six Nations.

    McCann, Murray, Nash, Forde, Ahern, McCarthy, Coombes and possibly Gleeson all look capable of putting pressure on the incumbents. Have a funny feeling JOB will eventually oust Lowe as the starting winger too.



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,377 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    baird, mccarty and wycherley are all capped and are all under 26 years of age currently.

    threadwell is 28, james ryan is 27.


    the development of alternative options has begun ages ago.

    no one, literally no one, expects the development to suddenly stop.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Beirne seems to be ageing fairly well. He was almost 25 by the time he started a game for the Scarlets. He's had an intense few years but that late start often stands to guys when they're not putting their bodies through serious punishment when still developing physically.



  • Administrators Posts: 56,559 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Given their injury records I would imagine Beirne is more likely to still be playing at 35 than Henderson is.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,819 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    JOB is a quality player and very flexible. I think Nash is a possibility to nail down a wing. Lowe will hold out for a year but, he's certainly not undropable.

    Henderson has had a career disrupted with injury. I can't see him lasting for this cycle.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,017 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Iirc, Farrell did seem to have have a decent amount of flux early in his tenure, and was happy to throw guys in early. Part of that was down to retirement (Best, Kearney) but even so, I think we could see the occasional surprise this early in the cycle.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Big Joe and Ryan will still hopefully be around, Baird has played etc. I would hope players progress and take the slots but they shouldn't be handed to them because of age

    Less miles on clock so Henderson might be still around, Beirne sticks his head into the wrong places so wear & tear could be an issue



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    What happen if someone is injured after 5 mins etc? the bench is now the winning and losing of games.

    Coombes is a player who has been in the squads etc so he has been given a chance. You would need to ask Farrell why he hasn't played more. But as you mentioned him as an example, if he is not performing in training and other players are ripping it up, why would he get onto the bench instead of another player?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,592 ✭✭✭OldRio


    I thought I read recently that an Ireland development team would be playing an Italian team home and away.



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,377 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,017 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    A large part of it for Coombes, Prendergast, Timoney in the back-row etc. is because the 4 incumbents were viritually never injured in the preceding 2 years.

    The opportunities just weren't there. That doesn't necessarily mean they aren't performing in training.

    The Conan injury around RWC-time was the most minutes missed by any of the 4 incumbents in ages. In the 2 seasons, and 19 Tests vs Tier 1 nations prior to the RWC, the 4 of POM, VdF, Doris and Conan missed a total of 21 mins gametime because of injury (solely, Conan vs Argentina in the AI's 2021).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 42,996 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Younger players need to get an early introduction to the international level. I'm not saying any particular player needs to be in the squad on a regular basis.

    Introducing them to that level earlier gives them an experience of what they need to work towards. It benefits the team in the medium term.

    We need a panel largely made up of players under 30 now, with plenty of games under their belt for 2027. Now is the time to start their introduction.

    Herring, Bealham, Kilcoyne, POM, Bundee, Murray and obviously Johnny won't be there. Maybe one might still be there.

    We won't have all, if any, of Beirne, Henderson, Conan, Josh, Henshaw, McCloskey and Lowe and Gibson-Park.

    That's 15 players from our World Cup squad. If we have three of them at the next World Cup I'll be surprised.

    So what do you want to do? Start introducing them two years in advance? Will you find the right players and give them enough experience by the time 2027 rolls around?

    I think you need to give them time now and have most of your starters set two years in advance of the next World Cup.



  • Administrators Posts: 56,559 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Timoney had opportunities. He's just not at that level.

    To labour the point I made earlier, Timoney also had chances in European / Interpro fixtures to stake a claim and never put in a performance that would have forced anyones hand.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    A decision was clearly taken(to me anyway) post 2019 to move away from POM. He seemed to have moved into the backup/experience off the bench role. Potentially the captain against the tier 2 teams etc. Media talk as well but that was the way it looked.

    Yet he manage to fight his way back into been one of the most critical players for Ireland come World Cup. So players clearly had the ability to fight to get into the team

    See below in terms of transition over the period.

    This was the first Farrell squad post Joe. You had 18 players who didn't travel to World Cup in that squad I think at a quick glance. Including 5 players uncapped. Seems to me a decent number of players swapped in/out over that period.

    I think all of the 3 you mentioned played at their provinces from 2020

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    As I posted above we swapped out 18 players from the first 2020 squad so it's not impossible. I have no problem with putting players into the team if they deserve it. So far the posts I have seen on here seem to be pushing players into the team because of age, hoping they are able to swim and not sink.

    That would set a bad precedent in the squad if you are rewarding players with caps who don't deserve it over others just based on age.

    It's hard to tell who we will or won't have. Looking back at the 2020 squad the likes of Connors/Dillane/JOD/Addison would have been the guys most would have said would be big players in 2023 and POM/Earls etc would probably have retired, Sexton for sure most people expected to retire post Lions.

    Pick the best players to win the game at that time and if a young player wants to start then let them earn it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,017 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Tbh, I felt Coombes did last season, but it didn't come to pass (it was also at a time when Conan had a dip in form). His group stage performances in Europe were exceptional.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭Must love hardship


    I think Ireland should go hard to win the 6 nations and tour to South Africa in 2024.

    Then with Farrell away with the lions in 2025 there is more leeway to bed in New players and not as much pressure on winning the 6 nations. The 2024 November Internationals, 2025 6 nations and 2025 summer tour( minus the lions players) look to be a great opportunity to look at new players.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,017 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    And of those 18, how many had time out due to injury at various periods or from retirement? I daresay a good number.

    With the back-row, I've spelled out that there weren't very many at all for the last 2 seasons.

    The point being, if the incumbents are fit and playing well, it's too simplistic to say "they alternatives aren't doing it in training". If, say, Conan got an injury during the 6 Nations and Prendergast got called into the 23 is he then suddenly "doing it in training"? It's too binary.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,209 ✭✭✭Mr Tickle


    The other way of looking at that is that relying injuries as the opportunities to get guys some experience isn't enough.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,819 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    The panel we had failed. They weren't good enough. That's the reality! It was our best opportunity too, imo.

    There will be a phased period to additions and subtraction. In my opinion, scrum half is a key position to blood somebody. Murray should be phased out. Gibson Park didn't have a good world cup and I doubt he's around in 4 years. Hopefully a new scrum half is in the 6nations squad. Loose head I think will be Porter and Loughman with another. Pointless continuing with Kilcoyne and Healy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    There's no signs yet that he's declining, and that lower early exposure you mention could indeed stand to him.

    But a guy like him, slightly undersized for his position, and so busy at defensive breakdowns... I'd worry how many years are left. Those stamps in his "cleared out" passport will eventually fill the pages.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 36,495 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    ...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030



    A province badly needs to get across the line in Europe, imo. I'm no psychologist, and not to downplay the achievement of a Grand Slam, but it really does seem as though the mental pressure created by "we need to win to stay undefeated" is very different to the pressure created by "we need to win or we go home with nothing and they take it all". There's even a hint in the language you hear from players and coaches "we're treating this as a final", suggests there is just that difference between the natural context of a 6N game, to that of a knockout or final. Note I'm saying "different" here, not "more/less" etc. The caveat here is the tour win in NZ, which comes a lot closer to the context of a tournament. Could ROG have therefore derailed the momentum of the Irish setup before the RWC? Discussion for another day...

    But if one of the provinces can bring home a European title, I think the changing room of the national team can only improve. I'd rather have a chunk of the players buoyed by European success, and the rest envious of that, than the entire cohort fighting their anxieties about whether they can get the job done.

    tl:dr Munster should be allowed sign Ox Nche.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,002 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    Even the IRFU spelling Baloucoune's name wrong.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,592 ✭✭✭OldRio


    Andrew Porter talking about the World Cup and more on the 'Rugby Pod' on YouTube. A very very good interview. Worth a watch.

    Not sure how to post a link but it's worth a watch.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    We won the Grand Slam, came second the year before. Not sure we need to win a European Cup

    To win it in reality we will need to change the current overseas policy which seems to be not allowing leinster to sign a top quality international player. At the moment it is clear to me, the strategy is for Leinster to sign decent pro's but not big names international. Probably because they would stop Irish players getting into the team. I don't think for one second when Leinster went to the IRFU to sign a beaffy second row to compete with La Rochelle they had Jenkins in mind.

    Will that happen? I very much doubt it. Is it better for the game in Ireland? questionable.

    DO I think Ireland should do it? At the moment no. It is milimetres between winning and losing at the moment.



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