Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Dubinusa · 08-11-2023 01:24PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121341360#Comment_121341360

Not sure about left footed wings, but Russell and T.O.B from Leinster are viable options. Shane Daly and Nash are both very good players.

It's a shame that Larmour hasn't improved. If anything, he's stood still if he hasn't regressed. I find it hard to believe that after all this time the same problems exist for him. What exactly are the coaching team doing that these problems can't be fixed?

bilston · 08-11-2023 01:46PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121341360#Comment_121341360

You definitely haven't watched Stockdale this season. If Stockdale can carry on his form from the first two games he's played (3 tries and generally very good all round) he will be right back into contention. Obviously he needs a run of good performances, particularly in the Inter Pros and Europe.

Not sure about left footed U20s wingers from the last year or two. The back three were pretty exciting runners last year weren't they? Can't remember their names (McErlean was one maybe?)

I'd be interested in Calvin Nash amd Tommy O'Brien to see how they go.

Jump_In_Jack · 08-11-2023 01:48PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121339210#Comment_121339210

As mad as it sounds, in the near future we could be looking at Brian Gleeson at 8, Ruadhán Quinn at 7, and Beirne or Coombes fighting it out for 6. Gleeson is already the same size as Coombes but a bit more mobile and room to fill out more, Ruadhan just turned 20 in October, and Gleeson will turn 20 in February.

O'Connell (will turn 20 in May), Ahern (will turn 24 in Feb) and Edogbo (will turn 21 next month) fighting out for lock positions. Plus Kleyn if still around.

And that's not even considering the other talented guys.

Kendellen may find himself like Scott Penny, a very good all-round player, but stuck behind bigger and better athletes. Hodnett is quicker than the others, but I could see Ruadhán passing him out this season, his size and speed are phenomenal and seems to be a good player also. If they are good enough they are old enough. One thing Kendellen offers is good cover across the back row, he is capable of being a fantastic back row sub, and could perhaps cover centre too if going for a 6-2 split.

bilston · 08-11-2023 01:54PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121341541#Comment_121341541

Interesting, I had Hodnett down as someone who was likely to make the extended Ireland Six Nations squad. Quinn still has a year to go at U20s doesn't he?

Jump_In_Jack · 08-11-2023 02:01PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121341588#Comment_121341588

I believe Quinn had his final year this year as he turned 20 in 2023, I think U20 is if you turn 20 in the calendar year.

Hodnett is a fantastic player, but that's why I think it's mad, he will be under a lot of pressure to nail down the 7 jersey with Quinn's ability.

The Parish King · 08-11-2023 02:42PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121341541#Comment_121341541

I think Gleeson is the biggest prospect we’ve had in the forwards since the 2016 u20 team with James Ryan and Andrew Porter.

It’s rare for Irish forwards to be so physically imposing, and all the more impressive that he was a year young as well. Great to see him getting exposure for Munster already too, as one poster mentioned - if you’re good enough, you’re old enough.

letsbefair · 08-11-2023 03:11PM

They will need to break into the first xv at province level and perform in big games. The standard to get into the Ireland back row is extremely high. We mainly need a back up to Andrew Porter and an out half to replace Johnny proving themselves consistently at the top levels and staying injury free.

08-11-2023 03:18PM

We've seen in the past that the pathway is different for proper elite talents than it is for anyone a rung below. We seem reluctant to give out gametime to players who might be on a similar level to the incumbents, but are quick enough to bring through the really top talents. Could see this happening with Gleeson

Clegg · 08-11-2023 03:32PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121341935#Comment_121341935

In retrospect I think Doris belongs in that group of elite young talent too, but he was in a poor u20 side and didn't get the recognition he probably deserved.

He's the biggest success story of Ireland's player pathways in recent years imo. He's a top 3 player in the world in his position and included in multiple World best XVs. Moved very swiftly from u20 to provincial debut to test debut.

ersatz · 08-11-2023 03:40PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121341425#Comment_121341425

Larmour is the poster child of Leinster failing to develop players because of their over abundance at the province. He has an incredible athletic profile along with skill and brains and he is no better today than he was 4 years ago, and has probably gone backwards in confidence. I’d be amazed if his trajectory would have stalled out in the same way at Munster or Connacht.

08-11-2023 03:58PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121341541#Comment_121341541

If i was looking for a proto VdF in one of the provinces, that’s Kendellan body and athleticism wise to me. Especially when you have a ton of carrying in your pack, that can be extremely useful.

08-11-2023 04:06PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121342263#Comment_121342263

Surely the prototype would be someone who isn't getting gametime? Not Larmour who has played a tonne for Leinster

Jump_In_Jack · 08-11-2023 04:37PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121342351#Comment_121342351

I see Van der Flier as a super mobile player, he can play 80 and cover every blade of grass, and pop up on the wing at pace in broken play. However, I don't think he does enough at the breakdown, and carrying, he did show some improvement in 2022 I thought but didn't reach those levels recently.

I don't think Kendellen is as athletic, I think he's actually brilliant at the breakdown and probably similar at carrying. They are both 6'2" and around 103-105kg. But I would think they are different types of players. Kendellen's strengths are different though in my opinion.

ersatz · 08-11-2023 04:47PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121342385#Comment_121342385

Im thinking more about his International career and I'd compare him to Conway in that regard, though obvs Conway has a hill to climb to get back into the test scene.

AbusesToilets · 08-11-2023 05:29PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121342263#Comment_121342263

Could say the same about McGrath, has everything you could want in a SH, bar consistent passing. Worry about Porter too, 3 seasons in at LH and still has the same fundamental issues with his scrummaging.

sydthebeat · 08-11-2023 05:43PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121342263#Comment_121342263

thats a very strange 'postage stamp' revision of larmours career to date.

theres a few reasons larmour hasnt progressed as much as his initial hype would have suggested. Hes been injured for a lot of those 4 years you are referring to.

Hes also been injured for a heck of a length of time leading into the RWC. he missed the november internationals in 2022 with a foot injury and most of the 6 nations in 2022 with a hip injury (not a good injury to have with his style of play), and had back problems leading into it.

he picked up a bad injury in oct 2020 which kept him out until 2021, and he had a shoulder injury in December 2021 which kept him out for over a month

in the 3 seasons before his injuries started to become a problem he was a consistent 1500 mins plus per season player (very similar to Conway actually, who only has had one season of any significant high minutes with muster in 19/20, most season around then he was a 1500+ min player, and also has suffered from injury disruption in later seasons)

i wouldn't agree that his trajectory has stalled due to being at leinster either. He is very much on the radar of Andy farrell who only this year said of larmour:

“He’s certainly a character we’ve missed around the place. If you could have 36 players of one type of personality, you’d probably want 36 Jordans. He’s such a great guy to work with. He’s so positive, so aware of himself, such a good teammate etc.

“It’s great to see him back fully fit, and playing some pretty bloody rugby. I think of the break he made (for Leinster against Racing) from the halfway line when Ross (Byrne) threw him the ball. It takes something special of an athlete to do what Jordan did.”

the only way Larmours trajectory could have continued upwards at another province is if those injuries didnt happen, and the location of the province he plays with is immaterial to that

ersatz · 08-11-2023 05:54PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121342731#Comment_121342731

He's played a fair amount for Leinster in those years but if you believe his omission from the Irish team is exclusively to do with injuries Ill disagree with you without going through every season to compare the timings of his injuries with the selections for Ireland.

sydthebeat · 08-11-2023 05:58PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121342797#Comment_121342797

No where did I say "exclusively due to injuries" so if you disagree with that statement then your disagreeing with yourself.

I said the was a few reasons but didn't think I had to go and list them all, as injury is the most significant reason.

He's still at that level immediately below the current squad, so not bad for a guy who's development was hindered by Leinster for the last 4 years.

aloooof · 08-11-2023 06:03PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121342797#Comment_121342797

Iirc, Farrell initially selected him as his starting FB at the start of his tenure. But Keenan (who initially started on the wing) overtook him and Larmour hasn't really gotten much of a look in since. Part of that is injury related, but you'd have to think there's a good number ahead of him in the pecking order.

Dubinusa · 08-11-2023 06:12PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121342263#Comment_121342263

I agree.

Dubinusa · 08-11-2023 06:16PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121342731#Comment_121342731

The fact that Larmour still has the same weaknesses as he had a few years ago is surely a reflection on the coaching?

sydthebeat · 08-11-2023 06:35PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121342881#Comment_121342881

He wouldn't be the only rugby player who had a poor aspect to his game.

At what point does it become the players issue and not the coaching... Or do you think coaches look at a players game and decide not to work on their deficiency?

Dubinusa · 08-11-2023 09:09PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121342945#Comment_121342945

No idea, tbh. It's shocking to me that there's been little or no improvements for Larmour.

Jump_In_Jack · 08-11-2023 10:52PM

Is it poor coaching or wanting different attributes in a player to match the coach’s game plan?

Larmour is quite a bit smaller than the Irish back 3, and to my knowledge has never exhibited a side of him where he can come off his wing and get creative with kicks or carries, maybe Leinster supporters could speak more to that?

Wegians89 · 09-11-2023 12:50AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121341360#Comment_121341360

Forde and Osborne are both left footers, so you wouldn’t necessarily need a left footed winger

ScissorPaperRock · 09-11-2023 07:24AM

42.ie reporting plans for Emerging Ireland/Ireland A vs Portugal in March.

Good to see they're continuing with this approach to looking at up and coming talent.

https://www.the42.ie/ireland-portugal-international-6218107-Nov2023/

awec · 09-11-2023 08:57AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121342263#Comment_121342263

along with skill and brains

Larmour has plenty of skill but I think it's the brains department where his biggest weakness lies.

phog · 09-11-2023 09:09AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121344917#Comment_121344917

It's behind a paywall so I can't read the article, I think in principle it's a great idea to have "A" games again. However, I think they need to run in parallel with the International window rather than cut into window of club competitions so I prefer to see this game being around the 6Ns rather than later in March.

ionadnapóca · 09-11-2023 09:50AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121344769#Comment_121344769

I was going to add to the post if it would be worthwhile repurposing Osborne back into a winger!

He has the passing and kicking skills with size to make an excellent 12 with ball in hand. Still not sure about his defense. He has loads of time but I just don't know if its in him to be an excellent defender.

Ringrose has the 13 spot locked down.

Don't know enough about Forde other than he plays 12 (bit of 10) and looks good with ball in hand.

TRC10 · 09-11-2023 03:55PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121342221#Comment_121342221

Doris one of the most overhyped players in the World. He was utterly anonymous in the World Cup and anonymous in both European Cup finals he's played in. His handling is still sub par. Certainly not in the top 3 no.8s in the World. He's on borrowed time with Gleeson and Culhane coming through.

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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