Ear to the ground

_Brian · 02-10-2020 4:06pm

Panch18 wrote: »

Brian lets get a few things straight here

there are approx 1355 words in the article - 61 of those words can be attributable to sewerage and small doff of the cap to spruce plantation.

That leave a whopping 1295 words, or 95% of the article focused solely on the bad dairy industry and building the narrative around that - hardly balanced journalism would you say.

A couple of other points - she mentions that dairy cow numbers have gone up by 400k - but fails to note a couple of key points, 1 being that the suckler herd population is falling and 2 that we had as many cows as we do now back in the 80's before the quota.

Another MAJOR point is that fertilser use in Ireland hasn't changed in the last 20 years, if anything it is down - it was certainly down from 2015 compared to 2005. AND fertilser use in Ireland is lower now than it was in the 1980's

Also absolutely no mention of the fact that we now have calendar farming for both natural and artificial fertiliser, if these deadlines haven't helped the environment then why are we being subjected to them?? No mention whatsoever of any measures that have been taken by farmers over the last 30 years - including the huge spending that we have done on slurry storage and waste water management.

No mention either of tillage and how the run off from tillage ground could be contributing to the poor water quality

And 1 thing that is really grinding my gears - calling Irish farmers INDUSTRIAL - if she wants to see industrial she should travel a bit and see what real industrial farming is like

We might have the same number of cows as the 80’s but they are more and more concentrated than them and this concentration is a potential issue.

Same regards fertiliser usage. It’s being concentrated onto smaller areas of land giving more potential issues for the river catchments of that land.

Concentration of the cow number a amd fertiliser usage is where the potential for problems is.

Panch18 · 02-10-2020 4:19pm

_Brian wrote: »

We might have the same number of cows as the 80’s but they are more and more concentrated than them and this concentration is a potential issue.

Same regards fertiliser usage. It’s being concentrated onto smaller areas of land giving more potential issues for the river catchments of that land.

Concentration of the cow number a and fertiliser usage is where the potential for problems is.

As we are predominately grazing based industry the limiting factor for any farm is acres. On a typical 100 acre block you can't go from 100 cows to 800 cows - if you do go from 100 cows to 800 cows then your acres will have increased from 100 to 800 as well.

It was true in the 80's and its just as true today - a cow to the acre with her followers

The number of farmers is less but the number of cows and the area used is about the same as the 80's - just because a herd is bigger doesn't mean they are a bigger polluter

blue5000 · 02-10-2020 7:36pm

The epa website is a disaster when it comes to finding info easily, but after a bit of digging I found this map. Use the layer tools on the left hand side to see how your local area is doing.

https://gis.epa.ie/EPAMaps/

Edit, keep an eye on the blue areas of this map too, proposed SACs

http://dahg.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=8f7060450de3485fa1c1085536d477ba

02-10-2020 8:15pm

_Brian wrote: »

We might have the same number of cows as the 80’s but they are more and more concentrated than them and this concentration is a potential issue.

Same regards fertiliser usage. It’s being concentrated onto smaller areas of land giving more potential issues for the river catchments of that land.

Concentration of the cow number a amd fertiliser usage is where the potential for problems is.

Panch18 wrote: »

As we are predominately grazing based industry the limiting factor for any farm is acres. On a typical 100 acre block you can't go from 100 cows to 800 cows - if you do go from 100 cows to 800 cows then your acres will have increased from 100 to 800 as well.

It was true in the 80's and its just as true today - a cow to the acre with her followers

The number of farmers is less but the number of cows and the area used is about the same as the 80's - just because a herd is bigger doesn't mean they are a bigger polluter

In the words of the Great Lebowski this is like only my opinion man, but the above bits in bold are it for me. The # of animals in country doesn't matter if they're more concentrated in some areas today than they were in the past, that will add extra pressures on those areas.

I'm fair tired of the green green grass of home spiel tbh. It's like the Bord Bia lamb add, as if all it needs is rain and sunshine to grow. Everyone here knows a ****-ton of chemical fertiliser and practices such as spraying off for reseeding goes hand in glove with Origin Green. It's a sham.

There'd be an argument if grass was grown naturally, but it isn't and it's preaching to a choir saying different. A lot of people who read that article won't have skin in the game, except perhaps pondering their health, so they won't be under any pressure to not-notice-on-purpose the thousands of artics loaded with chemicals and fert that travel our highways and by ways each year.

Sheep breeder · 02-10-2020 8:43pm

Panch18 wrote: »

Brian lets get a few things straight here

there are approx 1355 words in the article - 61 of those words can be attributable to sewerage and small doff of the cap to spruce plantation.

That leave a whopping 1295 words, or 95% of the article focused solely on the bad dairy industry and building the narrative around that - hardly balanced journalism would you say.

A couple of other points - she mentions that dairy cow numbers have gone up by 400k - but fails to note a couple of key points, 1 being that the suckler herd population is falling and 2 that we had as many cows as we do now back in the 80's before the quota.

Another MAJOR point is that fertilser use in Ireland hasn't changed in the last 20 years, if anything it is down - it was certainly down from 2015 compared to 2005. AND fertilser use in Ireland is lower now than it was in the 1980's

Also absolutely no mention of the fact that we now have calendar farming for both natural and artificial fertiliser, if these deadlines haven't helped the environment then why are we being subjected to them?? No mention whatsoever of any measures that have been taken by farmers over the last 30 years - including the huge spending that we have done on slurry storage and waste water management.

No mention either of tillage and how the run off from tillage ground could be contributing to the poor water quality

And 1 thing that is really grinding my gears - calling Irish farmers INDUSTRIAL - if she wants to see industrial she should travel a bit and see what real industrial farming is like

Very good and true post with farm buildings and management so improved in the last 20 years with dungstead and open yards gone.
On the tillage and not a tillage farmer, the green cover and closed periods and nitrates limit has improved so much.

jaymla627 · 02-10-2020 9:30pm

blue5000 wrote: »

The epa website is a disaster when it comes to finding info easily, but after a bit of digging I found this map. Use the layer tools on the left hand side to see how your local area is doing.

https://gis.epa.ie/EPAMaps/

Edit, keep an eye on the blue areas of this map too, proposed SACs

http://dahg.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=8f7060450de3485fa1c1085536d477ba

Is it the first map that the blue is proposed sac's 90% of the land in the parish here is showing up as blue we are just outside it

Say my name · 02-10-2020 9:37pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

In the words of the Great Lebowski this is like only my opinion man, but the above bits in bold are it for me. The # of animals in country doesn't matter if they're more concentrated in some areas today than they were in the past, that will add extra pressures on those areas.

I'm fair tired of the green green grass of home spiel tbh. It's like the Bord Bia lamb add, as if all it needs is rain and sunshine to grow. Everyone here knows a ****-ton of chemical fertiliser and practices such as spraying off for reseeding goes hand in glove with Origin Green. It's a sham.

There'd be an argument if grass was grown naturally, but it isn't and it's preaching to a choir saying different. A lot of people who read that article won't have skin in the game, except perhaps pondering their health, so they won't be under any pressure to not-notice-on-purpose the thousands of artics loaded with chemicals and fert that travel our highways and by ways each year.

The chemical and fertilizer argument applies to all the other land based activities too. From forestry to road gritting, from arable to gardening, from vegetable growing to council maintenance, etc, etc.

What and how would you do differently to rear stock and finish stock and even milk stock if you had to on a natural grass based diet?
How would you ensure energy and protein levels are adequate in that forage?

02-10-2020 9:44pm

Say my name wrote: »

The chemical and fertilizer argument applies to all the other land based activities too. From forestry to road gritting, from arable to gardening, from vegetable growing to council maintenance, etc, etc.

What and how would you do differently to rear stock and finish stock and even milk stock if you had to on a natural grass based diet?
How would you ensure energy and protein levels are adequate in that forage?

There are farmers doing it all around the globe. €50 will get you access to Biofarm 2020 where you can hear from some of them. Biofarm 2019 is available free on the NOTs YouTube channel, there are cattle, dairy and tillage speakers on there doing things differently.

Say my name · 02-10-2020 9:54pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There are farmers doing it all around the globe. €50 will get you access to Biofarm 2020 where you can hear from some of them. Biofarm 2019 is available free on the NOTs YouTube channel, there are cattle, dairy and tillage speakers on there doing things differently.

Very few though.

Even Gary Zimmerman is trying to work out now how to get dairy cows to really produce on a grass based system.
And he'd be world renowned on the biological side and soil mineral balancing.
It's one thing to talk it's a bit different to do the walk.
There's tillage farmers in this country who'd call themselves regenerative and they swear they can't live without glyphosate.
As a grass based dairy farmer yea you'd live without it.

Waffletraktor · 02-10-2020 10:03pm

Say my name wrote: »

There's tillage farmers in this country who'd call themselves regenerative and they swear they can't live without glyphosate.

It's not glypho because it's glypho, it's because it's the cheapest and most effective at what it does in resetting the plants. Anyone deriding it has never harvested a field gone dirty with weeds or just not that 100% fit outside of the grain crop or had grass weeds bringing ergot and making wheat unsaleable unless you splash the milling bonus on a colour cleaner.

Say my name · 02-10-2020 10:14pm

Waffletraktor wrote: »

It's not glypho because it's glypho, it's because it's the cheapest and most effective at what it does in resetting the plants. Anyone deriding it has never harvested a field gone dirty with weeds or just not that 100% fit outside of the grain crop or had grass weeds bringing ergot and making wheat unsaleable unless you splash the milling bonus on a colour cleaner.

Yea but it's not regenerative farming if it's used.
Isn't it that the glyphosate isn't a problem it's the carrier for that in the product can cause harm?
(Don't shoot me now. I'm regurgitating some authors who'd be supposed to be the daddy's of regen. )

Waffletraktor · 02-10-2020 10:38pm

Say my name wrote: »

Yea but it's not regenerative farming if it's used.
Isn't it that the glyphosate isn't a problem it's the carrier for that in the product can cause harm?
(Don't shoot me now. I'm regurgitating some authors who'd be supposed to be the daddy's of regen. )

It was the fats used in the formulation was causing it to hang around too long or summat like that your right yas!
I aint saying tillage farmers have a secret shrine dedicated to monsanto for bringing it to market initially, glypho is used because it's good at it's job and is very cheap. Until robotic weeding tec eliminates the need for it, which it will.
John Pawsey is someone to check out but he replaces chem with lots of weeding passes and cultivation to achieve the same thing.

blue5000 · 02-10-2020 10:42pm

jaymla627 wrote: »

Is it the first map that the blue is proposed sac's 90% of the land in the parish here is showing up as blue we are just outside it

2nd one J, npws, you will probably have to go through the filters again on left hand side.

02-10-2020 10:43pm

Say my name wrote: »

Very few though.

Even Gary Zimmerman is trying to work out now how to get dairy cows to really produce on a grass based system.
And he'd be world renowned on the biological side and soil mineral balancing.
It's one thing to talk it's a bit different to do the walk.
There's tillage farmers in this country who'd call themselves regenerative and they swear they can't live without glyphosate.
As a grass based dairy farmer yea you'd live without it.

May be a lot of things going on, perhaps the animal isn't adapted to do what it's being expected to do given the baseline set against it is so called conventional farming. I've had neighbours on my farm this year with their eyes popping out at my grass, no fert spread, no change is stock numbers from any other year. I intend to milk a few moo cows, but not this year.

Head onto Facebook or Twitter in the growing season and if lads aren't hooking up a spreader they're looking for a spray to kill a "weed". If it weren't for the holly bush and burnt oil, or the auld one with a cure it'd be monotonous. Even Gabe Brown reserves the right to use a herbicide every few years if he deems it necessary. That, and this is my point, is streets ahead of turning the land into a sterile medium. Then lads can't at all deal with resistant weeds/worms/pests which they've trained themselves.

That looks to be the cost of commodity agriculture as it sits in Ireland. Doesn't have to be that way but sure that'd involve a bit of thinking.

Neddyusa · 03-10-2020 9:12am

_Brian wrote: »

We might have the same number of cows as the 80’s but they are more and more concentrated than them and this concentration is a potential issue.

Same regards fertiliser usage. It’s being concentrated onto smaller areas of land giving more potential issues for the river catchments of that land.

Concentration of the cow number a amd fertiliser usage is where the potential for problems is.

Agreed on the concentration of cows being key Brian.

The other key point McSweeney was making - and appears to have been missed in this thread is nitrates in groundwater.

I was shocked last year seeing the nitrates increases in the main cow regions over the last 10 years.

And this N is not coming from cows or slurry or rivers (as most here are assuming)

It's coming from vast amounts of N leached through the soil from bags and bags of Urea.

Edit to say - I don't blame farmers for any of this - they're just following the blueprint pushed by those who should know better.

Say my name · 03-10-2020 9:40am

Neddyusa wrote: »

Agreed on the concentration of cows being key Brian.

The other key point McSweeney was making - and appears to have been missed in this thread is nitrates in groundwater.

I was shocked last year seeing the nitrates increases in the main cow regions over the last 10 years.

And this N is not coming from cows or slurry or rivers (as most here are assuming)

It's coming from vast amounts of N leached through the soil from bags and bags of Urea.

Edit to say - I don't blame farmers for any of this - they're just following the blueprint pushed by those who should know better.

Share the info please..

Is this the Teagasc catchments program?

If you were in power what would you do to address the high nitrate leaching in the Ballycarney district?

Neddyusa · 03-10-2020 10:38am

Say my name wrote: »

Share the info please..

Is this the Teagasc catchments program?

If you were in power what would you do to address the high nitrate leaching in the Ballycarney district?

This is direct from the EPA 5 year report:
"There has been a 6.5% increase in the percentage of monitoring stations with mean nitrate concentrations greater than 25 mg/l NO3 since 2013.
The south and south-east regions of the country continue to have the greatest
proportion of monitoring locations with elevated nitrate concentrations and this
region has also seen the greatest increase in nitrate concentrations since 2013".

These are places where the N limits in groundwater have breached the safe for human consumption thresholds. When you view these locations on the map they correspond almost exactly with free draining soils in the main dairy regions.

Im not familiar with Ballycarney (is it mainly a tillage area?) but I am farming on free draining soils myself and know that up to 1/3 of N applied here is leached.
Thats the equivalent of 4-5t of Urea equivalent on an average derogation farm - thats lost directly to the groundwater!

As for what I'd change - well the 50% reduction in chemical N allowance coming in the next few years is a start. Although I'd prefer to see that limit applied with allowances for soil type and farming system.

And if we're talking about an ideal world - heres what I'd do

A farmer said to me about 10 years ago that the ultimate policy change would be if government (North and South) could agree to turn Ireland into an organic food Island. (or even more realistically - just GMO-free)
All farms - dairy, tillage, hort, beef, lamb, even pig and poultry included.
It would be the simplist marketing campaign ever - no need for the suits in bord-bia anymore :pac:
Pick up your butter or your leg of lamb in the supermarket in Germany and you see its from Ireland - you instantly know its organic (or GMO free).
I think he was right - returns could be made from farming rather than subsidies for a change!
Never going to happen - but you did ask

https://www.epa.ie/pubs/reports/water/waterqua/Water%20Quality%20in%20Ireland%202013-2018%20(web).pdf

Say my name · 03-10-2020 11:58am

Neddyusa wrote: »

This is direct from the EPA 5 year report:
"There has been a 6.5% increase in the percentage of monitoring stations with mean nitrate concentrations greater than 25 mg/l NO3 since 2013.
The south and south-east regions of the country continue to have the greatest
proportion of monitoring locations with elevated nitrate concentrations and this
region has also seen the greatest increase in nitrate concentrations since 2013".

These are places where the N limits in groundwater have breached the safe for human consumption thresholds. When you view these locations on the map they correspond almost exactly with free draining soils in the main dairy regions.

Im not familiar with Ballycarney (is it mainly a tillage area?) but I am farming on free draining soils myself and know that up to 1/3 of N applied here is leached.
Thats the equivalent of 4-5t of Urea equivalent on an average derogation farm - thats lost directly to the groundwater!

As for what I'd change - well the 50% reduction in chemical N allowance coming in the next few years is a start. Although I'd prefer to see that limit applied with allowances for soil type and farming system.

And if we're talking about an ideal world - heres what I'd do
A farmer said to me about 10 years ago that the ultimate policy change would be if government (North and South) could agree to turn Ireland into an organic food Island. (or even more realistically - just GMO-free)
All farms - dairy, tillage, hort, beef, lamb, even pig and poultry included.
It would be the simplist marketing campaign ever - no need for the suits in bord-bia anymore :pac:
Pick up your butter or your leg of lamb in the supermarket in Germany and you see its from Ireland - you instantly know its organic (or GMO free).
I think he was right - returns could be made from farming rather than subsidies for a change!
Never going to happen - but you did ask

https://www.epa.ie/pubs/reports/water/waterqua/Water%20Quality%20in%20Ireland%202013-2018%20(web).pdf

The south and east also happens to be where the greatest concentration of people live in the republic. So there's that too. I didn't read the pdf but I wonder have they specific results like I asked for from agriculture.

Urea by it's nature gases back to the atmosphere more so than leaches. That's why those with clout want protected urea to be favoured.
You'd have more chance of Can and protected urea being leached than urea.

Saying nitrates in water is from urea is a bit of a nonsense and doesn't look at the whole picture.

Ballycarney yes it's totally tillage with a few sheep thrown in. Maybe one dairy after setting up this year.

What they found there is nitrates leaching from the tillage ground because they have bare ground and tilled obviously.
They also get spikes in the waters when a dry spell ends. This is from N being leached from biological nitrogen going into overdrive during the dry spell and consuming carbon in the soil and when the rains come it's flushed away especially so if there's no actively growing plant to take it up.

The key to retaining nitrogen on land is to have a permanent plant cover, no till, and to work with the biological cycles.

Denmark and Austria are way ahead of us on the organic scene in Europe.
They have their premium markets and population to take the product. They'll buy home produced first.

As someone in the know once told me though you can have organic soil and still have high nitrates leaching. So it's not the total panacea on that front.

(I'd like to see the information where you got the 50% reduction in N allowances in the coming years from. P.m. me if you'd like).

zetecescort · 28-10-2021 7:21am

New series tonight at 7 on RTE 1

eire23 · 28-10-2021 12:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/114802463#Comment_114802463

In that second link is it anywhere that is outlined in blue but without the red lines in it that is proposed sac ground?going to affect a lot of people if that's the case without them realising it.

28-10-2021 5:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118084624#Comment_118084624

Proposed is only official speak. Those areas are designated already. They havd been sending out letters.

13% of the country is currently designated.

They want 30% next with 10% of the country strictly protected.

We'll be moved onto 50% with the half earth strategy after that.

Lads & ladies need to wake up really fast.

wrangler · 28-10-2021 7:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/114807993#Comment_114807993

I doubt if all the irish lamb or butter in germany is organic

Easten · 28-10-2021 7:25pm

Darragh McCullough looks more and more like Bosco ever year.

The apple farmer was interesting enough apart from the stupid music that plays in the background

wrangler · 28-10-2021 7:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118086962#Comment_118086962

The bit at the end with the dairy farmer, ... does anyone know is he retiring from dairying or depopulated

blue5000 · 29-10-2021 9:58am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118084624#Comment_118084624

Ya just checked it and the link still works. It's one to keep an eye on, especially if you have a lake or native woodland or an SAC plot already near you. My guess is they're trying to have wild life corridors to help support wildlife or protected species.