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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Administrators Posts: 56,215 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    No, the point is this "fine margins" stuff is nonsense.

    People keep talking as if Ireland put in a performance that resembled what they've shown the past 18 months and were just beaten by a better team on the day. This is not what happened.

    Ireland lost that game because the performance was littered with mistakes that are atypical of this Ireland team, some of which were very poor errors at key moments of the game. These were not as a result of NZ playing well, they were entirely on us making a mess of the basics.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 13,942 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    It's literally not nonsense, rather it's a fundamental aspect of elite sports. Asante Samuel makes a fairly routine catch for an INT, Eli Manning gets sacked, Tyree doesn't manage to pin a ball against his helmet one handed, Randy Moss manages to snag a ball that brushes his finger tips. Any of those things happen and the Patriots go undefeated.

    There were multiple incidences, as laid out above, that could've gone for us and we win the game. Instead NZ got lucky with the bounce of Barrett's kick, Barnes didn't call a crooked throw for Jordan's try. Small margins all around.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,209 ✭✭✭Mr Tickle


    But we made all of those crucial errors and still the margin was the ball bouncing for Barrett and not for Sheehan.


    Nobody is happy about the mistakes and it clearly wasn't a great performance. But playing as we did, the margin could easily have been overcome by s single moment of luck



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,538 ✭✭✭ersatz


    Some people continue to point this out as if to say it's god's will and that luck or some sort of mysticism is what separates teams at the top, rather than mentality, coaching, skill, composure and tactics. For me it is definitely the latter rather than the former, and losing crucial matches by tiny margins is not just fate. This time SA came in as champions, having barely achieved their last WC, and again consistently come out on top in those matches with the tiniest margins imaginable separating them from the losers. This is not an accident, they are doing something to produce those fine margins that is what separates them from the others. We have become better at it, beating France in France with more consistency, winning the series in NZ, but we as a rugby nation are also still sometimes lacking in those fine increments that get us over the line, Leinster in Europe for 6 of last ten years, and Ireland at the World Cup when it comes to knockouts. Something is missing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,819 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Doris has a habit of feckin crap up at the wrong time. He's a very good player but, he's really prone to bone head errors.

    Sexton missed a fairly decent opportunity of a peno. He'll regret that for the rest of his life.

    Ireland just weren't good enough. We'll bounce back. So much talent coming through. I'd say we're in a better position than the kiwis, as far as young talent goes.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 32,765 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    To win it? yeah, maybe not.

    I think, for good or ill, we need to break our duck in the QF. So for me an easy draw in the QF is far more important than anything else.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,602 ✭✭✭dublin49


    the experts on here remind me of a colleague who when receiving sales data for the month praised his team for a job well done in his sales report,when subsequently he was told the numbers were wrong and not as good he rewrote report pointing out the shortcomings of the salesteam's performance.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,538 ✭✭✭ersatz


    In other words he changed his opinion in light of new evidence? Generally that would indicate someone who is doing things well. The point you make here proves the point you don't think you are making, which is that many many posters are incapable of recognising short comings in the team and their preparation in light of actual results.



  • Administrators Posts: 56,215 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    To be honest, I don't think the shortcomings are that vast. But we shouldn't pretend they don't exist, or try make out like we lost due to some external mysterious force that decided we were going to be close but not close enough.

    The issue is purely mentality. Skills, depth etc, we are there. We didn't have the composure to deal with the occasion and it led to rudimentary mistakes. Arguably you can't even fault the coaches, since experience of winning WC knockout games is very sparse in the IRFU setup (Mike Catt 20 years ago being the only one) there isn't really much knowledge there to pass along.

    Nienaber is joining Leinster, if he's still employed by the IRFU in 4 years time then the IRFU should be leaning heavily on him to help us break this duck.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,538 ✭✭✭ersatz


    Yeah, watching Murray hang off a player heading for a high ball to concede a penalty was seeing a guy with nearly 15 years test experience **** his pants totally unnecessarily because the pressure got to him. Johnny missing his penalty was the very same, there were numerous other examples of basic skills and discipline going out the window BECAUSE it was a 1/4 final. When your elite players are making those kinds of mistakes in the most intense games when all the marbles are on the table, that's simply a lack of mental composure. SA were not making those kinds of mistakes, NZ made a few and lost.



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  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 36,368 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    It indicates a manager who hasn't a clue what's going on with his team and is only there to take the credit or apportion the blame based on the figures they produce. Utterly useless, in other words



  • Site Banned Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭Musicrules


    I think some people have a problem with the fact that the pressure got to some players because they can't stand the whole choking in the quarter final talk. It is very uncomfortable, hard to face up to but it is real. An example from another sport would be Mayo. Lots of people from that county hate the narrative around their awful All Ireland final record and not being able to win one. They could list off excuses, talk about how close they've come, talk about the bounce of a ball or whatever else you're having but the fact is that they struggle mentally to get over the line in All Ireland finals.

    Ireland struggle mentally to get over the quarter final hurdle. You can't solve an issue without admitting that there's an issue first of all. You don't have to get hammered for it to be a choke. Look how close Mayo have come. They find a way to lose. Ireland find a way to lose in World Cup quarter finals. Sexton doesn't miss a kick like he did if he wasn't affected by the pressure. It got to him, it got to Doris, these were obvious examples but the less obvious examples would be where players were taking the safe pass, not taking risks, not taking the right option, keeping it tight because they were tight.

    We will be in the same position in 4 years if the denial of this issue is the option taken by those in charge.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,538 ✭✭✭ersatz


    You can make moral judgements about some hypothetical manager, most managers aren't very good, etc. But the underlying point that was being made is that everything is all fine and well until results go again the team, and then there is criticism. So people who previously praised the team are now criticising the team just because new information emerges! I do not see what the problem is here, while we were doing well everyone is happy, now that we are doing badly everyone is pissed off. ITS SPORT, THIS IS WAHT HAPPENS. A manger who praises or apportions blame based on results, what is the world coming to?



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 36,368 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    A manager had to accept the blame first and foremost, it's his/her job to get the team to perform. The very basics of management are that you live and die by what the team produces



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,538 ✭✭✭ersatz


    Many managers are dicks but Im glad you know what a good manager is, maybe you have some experience. But let's recap here because people have been sidetracked by philosophising about managers who take credit and not criticism...the original point that brought this up.

    This is, I think, intended as a criticism of posters who may have previously praised the team but who now criticise the team, because there is new information. The meaning of the new information is disputed so failing to get past NZ in the 1/4 means either, A) we aren't as good as we thought we were and the loss resulted from a loss of composure because of the pressure or B) it's just the bounce of a ball and SA are consistently luckier than Ireland who would have won if we had more luck but alas, fate. The manager analogy above supports A, my saying that the manager changed his mind because of new information (which would be the performance against NZ) and changing your mind because you become aware of new information is not unfair, its actually how things are supposed to work.



  • Posts: 2,692 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I agree with this and would add on we also got majorly off system in the game.

    i think we are a try better than NZ and we pretty majorly under performed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,785 ✭✭✭theVersatile




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,972 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    David Humphreys will be the new IRFU Performance Director after David Nucifora leaves.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,785 ✭✭✭theVersatile


    World Cup failure and the recent fall of the Irish women's team will be the sole blots on his tenure. You can't deny where he's taken the IRFU in the last five years especially.

    Humphreys will have big shoes to fill in continuing the success of the men's team, getting the Women's XV team up to their former standard, and promoting equality of resource sharing around the province (especially in the West and North, where the relevant provinces have had the short end of the stick comparatively).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,155 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    The narrative here:

    Johnny Sexton, highest points scorer in the history of the six nations, highest points scorer ever for Ireland - misses a kick and you call it a stupid and basic mistake. As if he wasnt concentrating or something. It wasnt basic and it wasnt stupid. He was under huge pressure taking it, after 60 minutes of full on rugby. They arent robots.

    How can you ever say to anyone, dont make any mistakes. Now thats being stupid.



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  • Administrators Posts: 56,215 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Sexton's experience is all the more reason why it was such a terrible miss. Not sure why you would ever think the opposite to be true, that's a bizarre take.

    Maybe he wasn't concentrating, maybe he was panicking, whatever, it doesn't matter the reason, it was a kick he absolutely should have made and the consequences of his miss were substantial.

    Nobody said don't make mistakes, but as we've learnt, if you want to win these knockout games you have to at least not make really, really basic ones.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,224 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Not sure how I feel about it but let's hope he's successful and I wish him the very best in his new role.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Ireland absolutely did suffer from the pressure and it told. I think our opening 20 minutes were sloppy and then there were specific examples later in the game where it reared its head again. They looked rattled early on and it took them a while to get going.

    What I'd highlight though is that Ireland aren't the only team that suffer from this. It's absolutely natural for this to be the case especially when there's such an intense focus placed on that specific game by ourselves and our media. NZ didn't come into the game with the same baggage or pressure and were able to cope better with the occasion.

    But look at the final when NZ did have that level of scrutiny and pressure. They massively struggled and did so to a worse extent than we did, to my mind. Their captain made a really rash tackle that arguably cost them the RWC. They were totally rattled in that opening 20 minutes. Richie Mo'unga, the best 10 in the world over the last year, missed a straightforward touch. His opening kick off of the game was weirdly tame. Not high, not long, just chipped down the middle towards their 22 and Willemse was able to clear it with no pressure back into the NZ half; Mo'unga was terrified of making an error on it. He spilled a simple pass into his chest later in the game with an overlap on the cards. Beauden Barrett put in a brutal clearance from his own 22, missing touch by about 10-15m which led to a run back and three points for SA. NZ don't make these errors normally. Mentally, that game had the same pressure placed on NZ that the QF had on us.

    And SA, who are clearly the best team at coping with pressure, are clearly not immune either. Pollard is the epitome of calm under pressure yet was about 3 inches from missing a tap over penalty in front of the posts in the opening minutes which clipped the inside of the post. His second shot was even closer, from about 12m out and snuck inside the post by about 12 inches. Then their line out had a significant collapse in the second half as they generally started to retreat into themselves. If Kwagga Smith hadn't been on the field for those final 25 minutes, they lose to 14 men.

    The players are all human. Pressure gets to them all in different ways. Unfortunately for us, the QF is such a mental monster for us, that's where it pinched us.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,155 ✭✭✭Tombo2001



    To be Devil's advocate, and instead of saying truisms like dont make 'basic mistakes' whatever basic is supposed to mean in this context, an entirely subjective term...

    What would you, joe soap on the street, say to Sexton to do differently.

    Should he have practiced a bit more?

    Dont have a brain freeze Johnny?

    What does he do different so that kick goes over.

    Repeating again, that you are joe soap on the street, and he is Johnny Sexton.



  • Administrators Posts: 56,215 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    This is just really silly now. Nobody on here is a professional rugby player, if you're going down the route of suggesting you have to be qualified to have an opinion then I think you're lost. If you're after a bunch of clapping seals, mindlessly avoiding any discussion of what mistakes were or were not made, then again, I think you're lost.

    He is Johnny Sexton, for a long time the best 10 in the world. He should not have missed that kick. Missing that kick was terrible. To suggest it was anything other than terrible requires some serious mental gymnastics.

    As I said before, if Crowley had missed that kick there would have been a completely different narrative on here, but I think it's just the case that some are very uncomfortable calling it for what it is because it was his last game etc etc etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,819 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    I understand what you're saying and I agree with a lot of it. The missed kick was poor. But let's not forget the feeble defense on the 1st phase try the kiwis scored off a line out. That was uncharacteristic. Nor should we forget the inability of our leaders to get the gap in the line outs policed. Massive failures by us.

    We were poor for the opening 20 minutes. It's not all on J10. Many fingers to point at several people!



  • Administrators Posts: 56,215 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Absolutely it's not all on Sexton, nor is it all on Doris, or Kelleher, nor is it all on Murray or whoever else made uncharacteristic costly mistakes.

    It's on Ireland as a team. We were somewhat off the boil and it cost us.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,819 ✭✭✭Dubinusa




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,155 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    Thats a strawman.

    My question is - what does he do differently?

    If its one thing that all coaches are taught from the very first day - its 'dont state the obvious' because actually we already know it, he knows it so whats the point in saying it. Yeah sure its terrible.

    What does he do different, so that next time, in the same situation, he kicks it.

    Because if you dont know the answer - then we have a situation where you saying on the one hand - this is a really really basic mistake and on the other hand, actually I dont know how to fix it.

    Which is a flat contradiction; those two statements cant be right.



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  • Administrators Posts: 56,215 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    My question is - what does he do differently?

    Not miss. I would have thought this obvious.

    I am sure Johnny Sexton himself knows exactly what he did wrong, only he can answer why he missed.

    I don't know why you think those two statements are contradictory either. Not knowing why he missed meaning I can't say it was a bad miss is a really bizarre take on this.



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