Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Clo-Clo · 31-10-2023 03:28PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121305672#Comment_121305672

Disagree, the qtr final you got nothing at the end of it. The Grand Slam game v England meant we won a Grand Slam and a Triple Crown. Ireland at this stage should not be turning our nose to it, especially when you consider how many times France have won it and still when they won it in 2022 it was a huge deal.

The other "friendlies" 🤔

Handre Pollard played how many minutes in the World Cup?

The final was more about the kicks that NZ missed

The semi was more about the scrum than Pollard

The qtr final was just all out madness and can't remember Pollard having much of an impact at all. The Kolbe block was more of a swing or the Ezebeth jumping out of the line and knocking the ball one handed, which was about to be a try for France and ended up a few mins later been a try for SA and put them back into the game.

Jump_In_Jack · 31-10-2023 03:30PM

The tired old argument that only World Cup knockouts matter is being thrown about again.

Every match matters; every 6 Nations matters, every Triple Crown attempt matters, winning every home match in the 6 nations matters, every time we win an away game in the 6 nations matters. The Autumn Internationals matter, up against SANZAR countries, Argentina, Fiji, Japan, Samoa all matter. Summer test series matter. Beating team on their home patch, putting up big scores on teams we're better than.

I can only assume the people that think only the World Cup knockouts matter are not following all of the other matches.

Now back to reality, there are about 45 players that were part of the squad for the World Cup, and that squad looks in great shape to go on and win another grand slam, to win back-to-back grand slams, this time the hard way, away to England and France, now that will matter.

Clo-Clo · 31-10-2023 03:32PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121305843#Comment_121305843

THis is it, at the start of World Cup most people agreed the top 4 countries..Ireland/France/SA/NZ could all beat each other on any day based on the bounce of the ball

As it turned out in the World Cup this is exactly what happened.

The only questionable result was SA v England which in reality SA should have beaten England out the door. But the second game syndrome came up with SA not been able to get to the same edge. It pi**ed rain and for some reason the SA coachs seemed to have no idea how England would play and the rest of the World knew. It was very odd and all they had to do was watch Leicester in the Premiership final and that's the exact same. Bad prep by SA who seemed to have their eyes on NZ in final.

Clo-Clo · 31-10-2023 03:35PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121305029#Comment_121305029

Don't think so, no rugby fan in North or South would make a claim like that.

Clo-Clo · 31-10-2023 04:01PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121305892#Comment_121305892

France v Ireland up first will be critical, win that game and we can look at a grand Slam. France can be slow starters so we need to get out of the blocks, will know more in terms of who is available in terms of who will be favorites but France could be all fired up after losing the home World Cup which they lined up for 6 years now

Jump_In_Jack · 31-10-2023 04:13PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121306116#Comment_121306116

Absolutely, that first match has all the ingredients to be as big a match as the World Cup quarter-final. France suffered the same fate as us, but did so in their own back yard, and they will be hurting. Every pundit out there pretty much seems to think Ireland and France are 3rd and 4th best teams in the world, neither will want to be relegated to 4th best in the world at this point. France have lost Atonio and Taofifénua already, not sure if there will be more before the 6 nations. I think we will only be without Earls and Sexton.

awec · 31-10-2023 04:17PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121305892#Comment_121305892

I mean, they all matter but there is clearly a hierarchy. The NZ game was the biggest game in our history, and it wasn't even close. It eclipsed our Grand Slam games. It would have been monumental for Irish Rugby.

Autumn games and summer tours are genuinely nothing in comparison to actual competitions. They are calendar fillers, and in some ways are hangovers from the amateur era when touring was the be-all-and-end-all. We could beat NZ in the Autumn and I'll sure we'll celebrate it as if we've achieved something.

I think some people are growing tired of people trying to substitute one for the other. Yea, we threw away the best chance we ever had, and are ever likely to have, to win a World Cup, or at least compete in a RWC final, but sure we won a Grand Slam and we won a test in NZ. They are chasms apart, but are being spoken about as if they are equals, as if one is meant to compensate for the other.

A back to back Grand Slam is possible. Great. Still pales in comparison to a World Cup.

I distinctly remember after the disappointment of 2019 and 2015 posters on this forum telling just that Irish Rugby shouldn't worry about RWCs, we'll never be contenders etc. Sure why would we ever push ourselves, we are competitive in the 6N and we should just content ourselves that this is our lot. The same people, I am sure, would have been the ones telling us in the mid-00s that we shouldn't get above our station and we should continue to party as if we're world champions when we win Triple Crowns. "Ah yea sure, we didn't win the 6N this year, but look we won a Triple Crown and that's really, really important and huge!"

The Irish Rugby following, and the media too, is absolutely full of utter sycophants.

awec · 31-10-2023 04:20PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121305915#Comment_121305915

THis is it, at the start of World Cup most people agreed the top 4 countries..Ireland/France/SA/NZ could all beat each other on any day based on the bounce of the ball

As it turned out in the World Cup this is exactly what happened.

I mean, this is obviously total nonsense in regards to our loss, but fairly on par for the revisionism in this thread.

Dropping routine catches, missing gimme kicks, a malfunctioning line out, stupid penalties, basic defensive errors, some serious mental gymnastics required to frame this as "the bounce of a ball".

RichieRich_89 · 31-10-2023 04:21PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121305892#Comment_121305892

Yeah, doing things that haven't been done before is the way Ireland can keep improving. The next ones to target are back-to-back Grand Slams and winning a Test Series in South Africa. They would be new achievements.

It won't be easy.

Podge_irl · 31-10-2023 04:34PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121306186#Comment_121306186

and are ever likely to have

I may just be an insane optimist, but I don't believe this bit.

I think internally the team is obviously the best we have ever had and some of the players will be very difficult to replace, but external factors were not exactly aligned in our favour. I'm not griping about those, just saying we could easily have a nicer route to the final in the future together with a team capable of taking advantage of it.

Clo-Clo · 31-10-2023 04:36PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121306170#Comment_121306170

France squad is huge and the options they have from the clubs means losing 1-2 players won't affect them.

Sexton is the question if we can replace and then injuries. Last time in France it was Joey at 10 and we didn't do too bad with a close loss.

I guess Crowley is front runner at the moment for the starting 10 jersey

Clo-Clo · 31-10-2023 04:38PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121306200#Comment_121306200

Agree to disagree

awec · 31-10-2023 04:46PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121306273#Comment_121306273

Yes, you could argue we may get lucky and not have to play SA and NZ in future (though to win it, you'll have to beat good teams).

But you could also say it won't be often you get the opportunity to play a completely hopeless Argentina in a semi final either. That game would have been a gimme.

Literally everything was perfect this time. Perfect preparation. No real injury problems. Stars won't align like that too often.

AbusesToilets · 31-10-2023 04:50PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121306200#Comment_121306200

And yet it was quite literally a bounce of a ball (Barrett's chip) and a thigh that made the difference. All those negatives could be thrown at NZ too. Terrible defense.on.NZ's part. We went up and down the pitch at will multiple times, Aki's try. Our lineout maul was dominant.

Jump_In_Jack · 31-10-2023 04:51PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121306186#Comment_121306186

I agree, winning the world cup is the top prize in rugby. We only get one chance every 4 years, and realistically there are huge risks each time with game plan selection, weather, injuries, form, the draw, the schedule, as well as the opposition. We may not get as good a chance for a while with all the factors that go into it. It's part of the journey to be annoyed for now, as long as it doesn't end up dragging all the fun out of the next part of the journey.

awec · 31-10-2023 04:55PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121306348#Comment_121306348

And yet it was quite literally a bounce of a ball (Barrett's chip) and a thigh that made the difference.

Why do you think it was this that made the difference and not, for example, Sexton missing a very routine and easy kick that forced us to have to play for a try at the end?

Why do you think that kick was the difference rather than Kelleher failing to score or even pass to a player in a better position to score, and then Caelan Doris dropping the subsequent drop out, a shift from scoring a try to NZ having a scrum on half way?

Why do you think Conor Murray gifting them a penalty did not contribute to our loss?

If Ireland had eradicated their own stupid and basic mistakes from that game they'd have won it. We can waffle on about "fine margins" or whatever if it makes us all feel better, but that's the simple reality.

Mr Tickle · 31-10-2023 04:56PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121306200#Comment_121306200

The ball did literally bounce over Dan Sheehan's head within a few metres of the try line.

Not saying that it was the only issue, but even with us playing as we did, a pointy ball bouncing differently could have been enough for us to win.

AbusesToilets · 31-10-2023 04:58PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121306376#Comment_121306376

How many similar mistakes would NZ point to, had they lost? Aki catching a bad pass and waltzing through 5 tackles. Our maul steamrolling through them over the line twice. Us winning a turnover in our 22 and slicing through them with ease to their 5m line, only for a knock on. Both teams made a lot of errors under pressure, not sure why you want to paint it as just Ireland struggling.

awec · 31-10-2023 05:01PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121306392#Comment_121306392

What mistakes of similar significance do you think they made?

Sexton's missed penalty and Doris dropping the ball were monumental mistakes. Massive moments in the game, both huge boosts for NZ.

AbusesToilets · 31-10-2023 05:06PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121306414#Comment_121306414

Aki's try was a massive mistake. Mo'unga missed a kick himself. They turned over ball in our 22 on a few occasions. Those are normal things that happen in games.

Mr Tickle · 31-10-2023 05:12PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121306376#Comment_121306376

But surely that's the point right? You've pointed to 4 single instances. Then the bounce for Beauden Barrett, the bounce over Sheehan's head and POM losing an aerial battle for a crossfield kick on the try line.

We could have done nothing differently in 6 of those and gotten a win. That's how fine the margins are.

awec · 31-10-2023 05:13PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121306434#Comment_121306434

Not really comparable in any way.

Missed kicks happen but Sexton's kick was easy, it was straightforward. Big moment in the game, it should have been scored and Ireland wouldn't have had to chase a try at the end. I don't think Jack Crowley would get off so lightly if he was the one who had missed it.

Turnovers happen, but again, Doris' catch was routine. Kelleher not getting that ball down was just bad play. Again, no real excuse for this, and Ireland went from scoring a try at a key moment, to losing possession on half way. This was probably the moment in the game when it became clear we were in huge trouble and didn't look likely to turn the game around.

awec · 31-10-2023 05:15PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121306479#Comment_121306479

No, the point is this "fine margins" stuff is nonsense.

People keep talking as if Ireland put in a performance that resembled what they've shown the past 18 months and were just beaten by a better team on the day. This is not what happened.

Ireland lost that game because the performance was littered with mistakes that are atypical of this Ireland team, some of which were very poor errors at key moments of the game. These were not as a result of NZ playing well, they were entirely on us making a mess of the basics.

AbusesToilets · 31-10-2023 05:22PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121306504#Comment_121306504

It's literally not nonsense, rather it's a fundamental aspect of elite sports. Asante Samuel makes a fairly routine catch for an INT, Eli Manning gets sacked, Tyree doesn't manage to pin a ball against his helmet one handed, Randy Moss manages to snag a ball that brushes his finger tips. Any of those things happen and the Patriots go undefeated.

There were multiple incidences, as laid out above, that could've gone for us and we win the game. Instead NZ got lucky with the bounce of Barrett's kick, Barnes didn't call a crooked throw for Jordan's try. Small margins all around.

Mr Tickle · 31-10-2023 05:27PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121306504#Comment_121306504

But we made all of those crucial errors and still the margin was the ball bouncing for Barrett and not for Sheehan.

Nobody is happy about the mistakes and it clearly wasn't a great performance. But playing as we did, the margin could easily have been overcome by s single moment of luck

ersatz · 31-10-2023 05:48PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121305721#Comment_121305721

Some people continue to point this out as if to say it's god's will and that luck or some sort of mysticism is what separates teams at the top, rather than mentality, coaching, skill, composure and tactics. For me it is definitely the latter rather than the former, and losing crucial matches by tiny margins is not just fate. This time SA came in as champions, having barely achieved their last WC, and again consistently come out on top in those matches with the tiniest margins imaginable separating them from the losers. This is not an accident, they are doing something to produce those fine margins that is what separates them from the others. We have become better at it, beating France in France with more consistency, winning the series in NZ, but we as a rugby nation are also still sometimes lacking in those fine increments that get us over the line, Leinster in Europe for 6 of last ten years, and Ireland at the World Cup when it comes to knockouts. Something is missing.

Dubinusa · 31-10-2023 05:50PM

Doris has a habit of feckin crap up at the wrong time. He's a very good player but, he's really prone to bone head errors.

Sexton missed a fairly decent opportunity of a peno. He'll regret that for the rest of his life.

Ireland just weren't good enough. We'll bounce back. So much talent coming through. I'd say we're in a better position than the kiwis, as far as young talent goes.

Podge_irl · 31-10-2023 06:09PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121306323#Comment_121306323

To win it? yeah, maybe not.

I think, for good or ill, we need to break our duck in the QF. So for me an easy draw in the QF is far more important than anything else.

dublin49 · 31-10-2023 06:21PM

the experts on here remind me of a colleague who when receiving sales data for the month praised his team for a job well done in his sales report,when subsequently he was told the numbers were wrong and not as good he rewrote report pointing out the shortcomings of the salesteam's performance.

ersatz · 31-10-2023 06:48PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121306916#Comment_121306916

In other words he changed his opinion in light of new evidence? Generally that would indicate someone who is doing things well. The point you make here proves the point you don't think you are making, which is that many many posters are incapable of recognising short comings in the team and their preparation in light of actual results.

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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