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2023 RWC Buildup, Squads, Fixtures 'etc'

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 53,028 ✭✭✭✭ButtersSuki


    They (like Ireland v NZ) still had their chances, they didn’t take them. Someone has to lose.

    The Savea call was in the first half. Who knows what would have happened had it gone the other way? You play differently holding/protecting a lead v chasing one.

    Given the favourable refereeing NZ have historically enjoyed (not just the 2011 WCF) I don’t really have much by way of sympathy for them though.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,425 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Yeah, I don't think he apologised, but he clearly saw a replay and realised his mistake because he did say something to Savea along the lines of "I thought there was no clear release" in an almost apologetic manner. But he didn't actually say sorry.

    The reality is referees always get one or two things wrong. But I did think SA benefitted more than NZ, but then I wanted NZ to win so probably noticed calls against NZ more.



  • Hosted Moderators Posts: 9,478 ✭✭✭fitz


    I generally agree. I think Barnes was mostly fine, aside from a few things. The Savea penalty, not carding Etzebeth for cynically walking into a pass where NZ had an overlap, and not even warning SA for 3 or 4 penalties close to thier line in the space of a couple of minutes late on. I've said it before, that just rewards cynical teams. It's an area I'd like to see less discretion for refs. Laws should be more prescriptive about escalation to yellow for continued non-technical penalties in the 22 by defending teams.

    On the Smith try, they can only go back two phases, but we're there any rucks after the ball came out of the maul? So, same phase and fine to go back for, no?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,114 ✭✭✭TheRona


    I think SA have been favoured by referees a lot more historically, and in this tournament over the last few matches, so I don't think that argument really holds any water.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,114 ✭✭✭TheRona


    Yeah, there were 3 rucks after the lineout and before the try, so they went back 4 phases.



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  • Site Banned Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭Musicrules


    Beating France at their home World Cup was harder than beating us. Did you even watch the games?



  • Site Banned Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭Musicrules


    You don't rotate in a World Cup semi final. Nonsense post and it turns out the South African coaches were proved right.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 53,028 ✭✭✭✭ButtersSuki


    Well that’s your opinion - which of course you’re entitled to btw. Mine would be that historically NZ have gotten more than their fair share of referring calls - and by those I mean blatantly bad or biased calls; far more than any other nation incl. SA.

    The Savea call was missed and incorrect but it wasn’t blatantly bad. Similarly the penalty in the France game was incorrect rather than blatantly bad or biased.

    NZ were for years it seemed incapable of getting even a yellow card no matter what they did on a pitch. The 2011 WC Final wasn’t missed calls, it was blatant homer/biased refereeing.

    For what it’s worth, I think Eben (walking into the passing lane) and PSTD (tackling a support runner off the ball) were lucky not to get yellow for their separate offences. But likewise I think NZ could have very little to argue about had they been down to 14 after 2 minutes. Another day and another TMO and that’s a red. That play was far dirtier and cynical than any of the SA card or potential card offences.

    Oh and I do think disallowing the NZ try was correct as the knock on was blatant. I also thought the pass for the actual try was forward btw.

    i’m not even a big fan of Barnes but I think he was good last night all things considered.



  • Site Banned Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭Musicrules


    They actually didn't play that well. Ireland made it easier for them. I think the final showed that New Zealand weren't that great. Definitely opportunity blown for Ireland, not sure we'll ever get a better chance of winning the World Cup.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,880 ✭✭✭Dave0301


    I didn't know about the TMO and the two phases of play. Off the top of my head I feel that this regularly gets if ignored, but I could be wrong.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,114 ✭✭✭TheRona


    You can't base one game on another. Teams don't perform at the same level every game.

    You do realise played most of that match last night with a man down? Despite missing a man in the forwards, they stood up to SA in every facet of forward play, and this is with people saying that their forwards would run straight through them. I'm really proud of how they performed.



  • Site Banned Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭Musicrules


    South Africa were wrecked after the past 2 weeks. New Zealand were far fresher, they left the game behind them really.

    The overall standard in this World Cup was quite poor. South Africa have won a soft World Cup. And they deserved it but they weren't great throughout the tournament. It was the worst New Zealand team ever to enter the World Cup and they nearly won it. That was mostly because it was also the worst England and Australian teams plus very weak Argentinian, Welsh and Scottish teams.

    That's why this will go down as one that got away. We blew it. The nerves got the better of us in the quarter final and that will be a major regret for our players for a long time to come.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 79,532 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Everyone 'blew it' bar SA.

    You need to get over it. And watch more tournaments, you'll find this one was not a whole pile different from others.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 53,028 ✭✭✭✭ButtersSuki


    This is very commonly misunderstood. A phase is not for example a pass (which a lot of people seem to think it is).

    A phase is the time a ball is in play between breakdowns. I haven’t rewatched the disallowed try but from memory it was pretty straightforward off the line out (where the knock on happened) so they were correct to bring it back.

    Now imagine the furore if the try stood and NZ won the game with the officials missing a rather blatant knock on?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,300 ✭✭✭Jacovs


    I will be honest, I thought NZ did enough at the end to get a scrum penalty. They did to SA what SA do to other teams. Not sure if it was kickable, but couldve set NZ up deeper in the SA half for one last phase.

    The lineouts were a complete shambles for both teams. More so SA.

    And dear god, like 4 piss poor drop goal attempts? Keep the possession, dont just give the ball away cheaply. I would be pissed off if im a forward, killing myself to get the ball near the opponent 22 and the backs all want a piece of glory by trying drop goals. And not even good attempts either.

    As for the red card, i didnt like that it happened, but dont disagree with the call either. Didnt look like it made much difference to NZ.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 53,028 ✭✭✭✭ButtersSuki


    I do think where NZ made a bad tactical error was after the SA yellow. They took a 50/50 at best long range penalty when for me a more tactical kick into the 22 and 7 minutes at 14 v 14 would have been a better option. You have the throw in and as long as you secure possession you can play for a much shorter DG or penalty.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,819 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    South Africa with 4 titles!!! Insane. Congrats to Rassie & staff. 2 for Rassie!! Certainly an all time great.

    Going forward though, I feel both the kiwis and saffers will struggle to stay ahead of the French and Ireland.

    For the kiwis. There's no more Whitelock, Rettalic and Aaron Smith. I think their run has ended. The bright spot is the new front rows.

    South Africa have to find an out half. Replace a relatively elder pack.

    France will struggle to find spots for the young bucks. They're falling over talented players, it's ridiculous.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,114 ✭✭✭TheRona


    It was 4 phases. They weren't correct to bring it back. Sometimes you get the rub of the green, sometimes you don't. Sometimes the TMO decides to make the rules up as they go along. That is life.

    BTW I don't think anyone thinks a pass is a phase. Maybe this is something you just discovered?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 79,532 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Jeepers, don't tell some around here you won by making a few mistakes and with a share of luck and the bounce of a ball. Their wee heads will implode. 😁

    Congrats Jacovs. Enjoy holding the Webb Ellis.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 53,028 ✭✭✭✭ButtersSuki


    Going to be a smart ass now? Classy.

    So you’d have been fine with that try being allowed even with the blatant knock on that everyone it seemed bar they touch judge and the ref saw?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,395 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    "Now imagine the furore if the try stood and NZ won the game with the officials missing a rather blatant knock on?"

    Now imagine the furore if the ref made a bad call for a penalty, realised it on the spot but instead of reversing the penalty, allowed the eventual winning team to kick it.

    That's one of the reasons why Barnes and his team will be under scrutiny. Allowing one team a score off a bad decision but disallowing the other. And a well taken try at that, whilst the winners couldn't even score a point in 45 minutes of play. Piss poor.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,149 ✭✭✭monkeybutter


    It was lop sided and weaker than it's been in maybe 20 years

    Internationally the game is in a bad spot, next world cup ould he a downer

    Wales England aus nz and sa arg are worse on the whole that 4 ago

    France ire better



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,122 ✭✭✭Shehal




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 53,028 ✭✭✭✭ButtersSuki


    Big difference between a 3 and 5/7 pointer as you know.

    And we see arguable/debatable penalties like that all the time. We don’t see tries given after clear knock ons.

    Boiling everything down to one penalty is folly. Bad/incorrect calls happen all the time and in every game. It’s part of the game - unfortunately.

    NZ did not lose that game because of that call,



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 370 ✭✭Klunk_NZ


    Worst winning team was SA 2007 they weren’t even a top 3 team IMO , best team 2015 ABs a bit of a debate where you rank the rest and I was too young for 91 and 87 so won’t talk out my …


    edit - winning with a lesser team is also a compliment to the group of guys so don’t be offended any 2007 SA supporters



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,395 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    No but arguably SA won it because of that penalty. Just like the early scrum penalties awarded against us in the quarter final - that set the tone early days.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,636 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    I think NZ should have had a pen off that last scrum. I also think they should have had a pen before that (not sure if it was the ruck directly before the scrum or the ruck previous). It looked in real time to me that a SA player (could have been Smith again!) had their hand on the ground while competing at the ruck. Can't find it in any clips on Youtube though.

    I think there were a lot of ref calls which went SAs way. FdK bought a pen with the player on the wrong side, we've seen plenty of times where the ref dismissed that because of such theatrics from the SH. EE was lucky not to get a yellow for disrupting that pass in the 22, at least should have been a warning for cumulative pens.

    The NZ try was probably the right call, was worth reviewing but wasn't clearly forward from the angles we saw. It was no more forward than EEs knock down v France so SA can't complain. The decision to disallow the other try has question marks over how far they went.

    As said above, going for the long range kick was a bad call by NZ. It was a low percentage kick and I think they'd have had a better chance of winning by going down the line. They were the better team but circumstances often dictate in sport that the best team doesn't win.



  • Site Banned Posts: 2,430 ✭✭✭Seadin


    It came back to bite them and rightly so. Can't beat South Africa in a final.



  • Site Banned Posts: 2,430 ✭✭✭Seadin


    No I dont agree, France nearly beat them and they hadn't a great team back then. NZ fell over the line.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,451 ✭✭✭Wailin


    Jesus, the amount of bitterness and glee towards NZ for not winning their 4th World Cup is pretty pathetic to read. Sad f**kers.



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