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Let's Be Honest Public Transport in Ireland is an Abominaiton Because it is Meant to Be...

2

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 161 ✭✭ArcadiaJunction


    People can not get their heads around how evil the Irish political Establishment are. They can't concieve that all these rail reports and plans since the 2003 Strategic Rail Review are just fairy tales with no plans to actually build anything. People may say 'what about the billions spent on consultants?" but this is part of the evil too. The reports are put out there as an excuse to fund more paperwork (consultants) and to buy votes. However, there is no agenda to actually build anything. It is all theatre. You can call me conpiratorial and paraniod, but I have had a toe in that world (regarding transport) since 2000 and I know first hand how evil and devious the Irish Political Establishment are. Ireland is fantastically corrupt. Just in a highly sophisticated manner and all the main players still get paid.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,333 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    'Evil'. Christ 🙄

    Also Ireland is constantly ranked as one of the least corrupt countries in the world.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,831 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    The issues around public transport around Ireland are compounded by many factors

    An Bord Pleanála

    This organization is a huge problem, whether you're planning for a wind farm or an extension on your house you submit planning application to the same entity. This is a problem. Secondly how the organization is run is questionable. There are allegations of serious corruption in ABP (such as a woman from Swords, reviewing/taking on every planning application made for, or relating to Swords....). Thirdly, the decisions they make and things they allow builders to do is very questionable. Such as allowing builders/developers to build right up to the edge of major roads/rail routes, hence eliminating any expansion possibilities (Bus Connect, additional Rail lines ). In fact they allow developers to close a lane of traffic for months on end to facilitate building to the edge of the road and having a drop off area for supplies while construction is underway, this is madness. Clarehall/Malahide road, Raheny Road, Tara Street.... I'm looking at you

    Nimby'ism

    Genuinely, I feel if you live more that 400m away from a development you should have no right object to planning on it, unless it's extreme circumstances (public land, park, Motorway, Aviation, etc) and we should be able to trust ABP to make the right decisions and let the builders know what they can and cannot build. Viable public transport needs be included in any development seeking planning permission. Case in question: Howth Junction - Howth Line set to be curtailed to feeder service yet, 500 apartments are being constructed in Howth with a view to construction more in Deerpark. So at the moment we don't have that, which I believe is the reason Nimby'ism is so bad (We all know they're just gonna throw it in any old way, so everyone objects.)

    Need for a Centralized public transport procurement system

    Having Politicians (TD's) talk about Metrolink construction is stupid. Metrolink is not an national issue. It's a North Dublin Issue. Basically we need a system where the government says how much it will give each year to this transport body and the money will be divided out amount the various public transport companies and to procurement, IE TD's have no say on what's built and where. This way TD's can save face when opposition from the Nimby's arises. It would also allow city management and ABP to interact with a main body and work together planning for the future. Instead of panning to some politician who's just gonna kick the can down the road, and might not even get elected next time.

    Like I know for a FACT that Irish rail and DCC have basically 0 communication. the same applies for Irish rail and ABP.

    Metro in what ever form it was called has been kicked around for 22 years at this stage, next year is make or break for it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭Economics101


    If you ever lived in a really corrupt country, you would not post such nonsense. The biggest part of the problem is not corruption, but a particular form of risk aversion. Politicians and especially civil servants are afraid to make decisions in case they will be blamed if things go wrong. One way to avoid blame is to make no decisions, and just get endless consultancy reports, reviews etc, etc.

    Not corruption, but cowardice.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,776 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Here's a great example of the kind of NIMBYism that previously has stopped public transport getting prioritised to date, with the new found interest in mobility for older people and people with disabilities (but only the older people and people with disabilities who have cars, of course).


    It doesn't look like they're going to succeed this time, with Councillors from FF, FG, Lab and GP all supporting the changes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,009 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    One wonders why these councillors are making life more difficult for their constituents by obstructing travel. Is there a big $ development going on here?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,776 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Did you mean to say "constituents with cars" there?

    Thanks for proving my point on NIMBYism beautifully.



  • Registered Users Posts: 625 ✭✭✭Cal4567


    Actually in my view you both are correct. Seen enough laziness in the civil service/local authority areas and as for corruption, at a smaller scale, but still there. Regulation across many areas has helped but regulation Irish style is really largely a post financial crash enforcement. We still have a laissez faire attitude, but that is changing, albeit slowly.

    Risk aversion. Most certainly. I have worked with considerable public sector agencies. Covering one's ass was a national pastime, very difficult to get anyone to put their heads over the parapet to make a decision. Ireland is also very small, many fish swimming around in a small pond. Feck up in a sector/industry, and you're tainted for life - or so people think. Just a mindset.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,009 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    "Did you mean to say "constituents with cars" there?"

    Which is most people in Dundrum.

    The point is thoiugh that this is nothing to do with commuting, it is about local people being able to get to their local facilities, many of whom are older and no longer commute to work, school, or college.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 625 ✭✭✭Cal4567


    Would we see that in any other capital city across Europe? I don't think so. Dundrum may have been a village, but probably only really so until around the 1950s. 70+ years ago!! Now, I'm a lover of nostalgia, but that is pushing it a stretch.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,776 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    What's the car ownership rates for Dundrum please?

    Did you mean to say 'local people with cars being able...' there? Why do you keep assuming that everyone in Dundrum or visiting Dundrum or passing through Dundrum has a car and wants to use their car and can afford to use their car? So many assumptions there.

    Let's be honest, what this is REALLY about is the business owners wanting to keep access for their own personal cars, so they get to drive in and park at their front doors and to hell with everyone else. They've been stirring up a mob for months with exaggerated stories and zero evidence. It's particularly galling to see the doctor and the pharmacist opposing active travel measures, but perhaps it's not in their interest to improve the health of the population.

    Where was there concern for the older people who can't drive?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,831 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    I used to frequent the area (and hated it mind you)

    The Traffic is goosed in Dundrum because someone built a massive shopping centre in it and then to make matters worse they took away lanes in favour of cycle lanes and made large parts of Dundrum a one way system. This is further compounded by the light sequence at Dargan Bridge.

    Basically, there was no planning.

    I'd hazard a guess that people using their cars are dropping their kids off to school or doing some local journey that doesn't suit public transport. Public transport in Dublin is only good if you're going to or from the city centre. (I use the DART every day)

    We've talked on here before and I know you're super pro cycling and that's grand, but for a large number of people cycling or public transport isn't an option. I've to head from Raheny to Swords later. In a Car it's 25 mins, using public transport you're talking 1 hour 30 mins (train and two buses). Cycling is about an hour (if you don't care about your life #dodgeyroadstocycleon) and about an 1 hour 15 min if you go the safer way.

    Buses are no use, we need a rail systems built. In relation to the Nimby'ism the worst offender of all for the Metro is Dublin Airport... which is shocking.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,266 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Not an argument for me to be interested in, but it looks from Google maps like Raheny to Swords is around 12km. Would possibly be faster by bike than car tbh. Possibly a bad argument against cycling, if ever you were to pick one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,953 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    People may say 'what about the billions spent on consultants?" but this is part of the evil too.

    What billions spent on consultants?

    In Cavan there was a great fire / Judge McCarthy was sent to inquire / It would be a shame / If the nuns were to blame / So it had to be caused by a wire.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,989 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Make the public transport free or nearly free.

    Already a huge % of the population have a free pass, so if the rest got a 90 min ticket for €1, then who would go any other way.

    If only the buses went towards where we want to go!



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,571 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Making public transport free is not remotely the solution - frankly it would just make things worse. The issue is not the price, it is the frequency and reliability.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,831 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    50 mins if you take the R139/Stockhole Lane.... where you might die.

    55 mins by Santry where it's a bit safer.

    30 mins by car (But only because I can leverage the north bound M1, distance is actually longer again at 18.5km, but higher speeds reduce the journey time), plus I've to got to bring some tools with me.

    Heading to Applewood at the back swords.

    Everyone has a reason why they're not using a Public transport, most of the time it's "It's not good enough", the fact I use the DART everyday rather than my motorcycle to get to work is testament to that. IE If it's good, people will use.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,945 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Just checked, according to Google Maps, it's about 1hr 4 minutes using two buses from Raheny to Swords at the moment.

    And only 40 minutes by bike.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,831 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    As mentioned I'm going to the back of Swords. It's a 30 min from the centre of the Town. Where the 1 hour 4 min bus drops you



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,266 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Yep you probably won't beat personal car for speed and convenience, I'm just saying that it definitely looks like a doable journey by bike. E-bike particularly. It doesn't look like an hour or 75mins by bike, from my very-far-away view of it.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,945 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    You can't get further to the back end of Swords than Applewood and it is currently 1 hr 7 minutes by public transport, 50 minutes by bicycle and 25 minutes by car from Raheny.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,266 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Yep I happen to know Applewood quite well (of all places)! I think even that 50mins by bike is possibly google metrics though, is it? Typically I'd find that to be a pessimistic estimate, (though perhaps I just go faster than the average commuter). You seem to be seeing something similar to me though, which is around 15km which would generally be well doable in 40 mins. The tools is the thing that makes it more of a challenge and slower. Or possibly just too much of a challenge altogether for most people because of the need for a cargo bike.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,989 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Well, the reliability improves the more people mode shift from car to bus. The frequency also improves. However, it is very complex, and would require more incentive than just price.

    Work is being done with Bus Connects - if only it could be rolled out quicker and with more positive results.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,953 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    We can do without homeless shelters on wheels.

    In Cavan there was a great fire / Judge McCarthy was sent to inquire / It would be a shame / If the nuns were to blame / So it had to be caused by a wire.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,776 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    International experience suggests that this doesn't get people out of their cars onto public transport.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,776 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    The reasons why cars often beat public transport is because we've prioritised all aspects of private car travel. This needs to change.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,571 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Public transport within the 2€ leap zone is cheap. Capacity is an issue and overwhelmingly what we need to fix that is to give dedicated lanes to buses and enforce them.

    Making it free genuinely will not help - it just subsidises people who don't need it for the most part.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,349 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980



    The removal/automation of 7 level crossings on the Cork line is the easiest of easy win projects and it's currently 29 months and counting sitting around somewhere in ABP. Let's face it, we're absolutely appalling at implemention in this country.



  • Registered Users Posts: 760 ✭✭✭Slightly Kwackers


    Dublin??

    I would love to get rid of the car, but public transport is worse than it was here fifty years back.

    Fifty years ago we had a bus on Fridays going to and coming from tralee, stopping at the junction of two villages.

    Now I would have to walk three miles to catch the Friday bus.


    This "green" bit seems fine until you try to figure out where the individual gains or is even partially compensated.

    Public transport is a "no brainer" as a trip in the car following the old Friday bus route rarely happens without picking up a queue of traffic at some stage.

    Sadly this message does not seem to get through to those trying to save the planet.


    This house is insulated using UK subsidised insulation. I brought a van load of retail outlet supplied fibreglass across a few years back at less than 5% of the price charged retail here. Likewise for home lighting CFL's were given away free or available for pence through supermarkets whereas I don't think that they were even priced lower than incandescents here.

    So I grin and bear the carbon tax, but wonder what is actually green about it? I'm all for saving the planet, but if it's just an excuse for raising taxes with no significant effect on the environment, what's the point? The tax will fill the coffers and if not going to "green" projects like public transport, will simply enable someone on a higher income to fill his gas guzzler more often due to his low tax bill.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,266 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    I don't mean to be negative or criticise, but this just reads like a broad rant with little connection to the topic at hand.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 760 ✭✭✭Slightly Kwackers


    Thanks, I suppose I did go off track, but basically my major moan is that public transport is a much needed commodity as climate change worsens.

    If cities are bad transport wise, then rural Ireland is not even at the starting gate.


    Dublin was excellent in comparison to the rest of Ireland as far as my attempts to travel go.

    It's difficult to describe the situation without seeming negative and it would be nice to see some of those enthusiastic saviours of the planet do something that would maybe get a few cars off the road.

    Forgive me, but even with the problems that you see if you have an Eastern residents view of public transport, they just don't compare to an infrastructure that is actually getting worse here in the SW.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 881 ✭✭✭thejuggler


    If public transport were free the homeless, beggars etc would take up residence leading to rest of society avoiding it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭Economics101


    Lots of loose talk about "free" public transport. It won't be free as you will pay for it as taxpayers, and likely pay a lot more as capacity is expanded to cope with the increased demand.

    Also is this advocated for Dublin local public transport only? If so, whare do you draw the limit? The farther out you draw it the bigger the cliff-edge : I can see huge complaints from Kilcock if the "free" zone ends at Maynooth. Maybe some people are foolish enough to advocate free nationwide public transport - so no-one loses out (!!!).

    One of the headacches for any public transport operator is the uneven level of demand - at peak versus non-peak hours. A zero price for peak-hour travel would be total madness. (I remember that the "free" travel for pensioners did not apply during peak hours, until a populist minister relaxed the rules, and no-one said a word against him)



  • Registered Users Posts: 760 ✭✭✭Slightly Kwackers


    Well my last trip from Houston to Tralee was in a nice, clean, new train and the journey would have been comfortable and pleasant if it were not for the mob of young drunks that forced me to leave for the next carriage. I could still hear the noise, so God help those that stayed put.

    Now the state they were in must have cost a good part of 100 euro each at least.

    Going back thirty years there was a beggar on the same journey, he was known to the staff and he was moved, I didn't have to.

    I think things were better thirty years ago when the beggars were controlled when they became a nuisance.

    So I'm afraid your concerns are not really those I can sympathise with. Homeless people have no homes, so what, they are individuals. We used to get them in the libraries in the UK all the time keeping warm. As for beggars, don't people beg for money after mass on Sunday, on Halloween, St Stephens day?

    Drunks that have lost their self control are often not poor or homeless and none were begging.

    When I consider the respect a simple request for a passenger to shift his feet from the seats got years back, I don't think your statement has any validity. Having a guard walk the train is a simple solution to anti social behaviour.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,180 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,180 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    Buses are for the poor. At least thats the perception.

    Luas is far more sexy. And a metro? well that would be off the charts.

    Not in our life time, though.

    Its cars all the way for a while yet.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    Yes,

    but in Copenhagen there exists one of the best metros..modern, clean, efficient, integrated…

    Lines : 4

    Opened : 2002

    Operations : 24 / 7 , 365 days a year

    Stations : 20 plus others under construction..

    I’ve made 3 visits to that city and it’s always been evident how much investment in that country they made for their city, citizens, etc…

    What have we managed in a similar timeframe ? We have not even managed to put a shovel in the ground in this godforsaken kip.. An absolute dump… with inadequates lining their pockets in positions of responsibility….

    my mother said about 7 years ago, in her early 70’s then… “ knowing this country, as I do, we’ll ( her and my Dad ) never see it in our lifetime….” I thought she was talking hokey and I scoffed at the notion, but as it stands, she’s possibly or probably very right….

    which is sad…. Worked all her life, paid tax all their lives, both spent much of their time as public servants or semi state employees…

    bus stop outside her door that would take her to a station in 4 minutes…

    we can find multiple millions at the absolute drop of a hat for everyone else’s problems in the world but we can’t over years, get a single fûcking metro line built….. absolute nutsville backwards backarse kip of a place.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,831 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    Buses are D and F tier trash

    Slowest form of transport by far.

    Heavy rail such as the DART and Light Rail such as Luas an Dublin metro are S and A tier

    Dublin is one of the richest cities in the world (per person) we should have S and A tier mass transit across the board and we don't.

    And don't even get me started on "rural" Ireland.

    Like if you Want to go from Belfast to Dublin, the Bus is faster than the train.... How the hell has that happened and why has no one done anything about it? I'd guess that this is one of the only places in the world where a 160km journey is faster by Bus than by rail.

    OP is 100% right, it's absolute most minimal effort possible.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,831 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    So I'm not going exactly from the centre of the village, I'm going from my house which is about a 15 min walk from the village.

    All this needs to be factored in with public transport. The walk to and wait at the Bus stop or train station is often one of the slowest bits.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,831 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    I get what you're saying but its not like that anywhere else though

    Hamburg and London have a vast tube system and all the roads in and out of the city and the tube is way faster, like STUPIDLY faster.

    We don't even need to touch the roads, just build tubes or elevated rail



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,900 ✭✭✭thomas 123



    "Issue is not the price"

    I'd disagree there when it comes to trains. Stupid prices to go to Dublin from anywhere.

    Eg Limerick to Dublin for an adult - 50 euro return - bear in mind that is on a train with no security or conductor or even a guarantee you would get a seat even if you prebook and select a seat.

    Other rail services then are now generally much slower then a car since the motorways so not ideal for anyone working.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,151 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Public transport can never deliver on orbital trips to the same degree as on radial trips to the city centre, for the simple reason that very few trips have identical starting and ending points.

    What it can do is have the orbital routes serve the major traffic generating locations and connect with the Spine routes at intersections.

    In your example you’re adding extra distance at either end and that’s just never going to be easy using public transport. People need to be realistic in their expectations as to what public transport can deliver.

    No two people are going to be making your specific trip

    Raheny to Swords is doable with the DART and 102 via Malahide for example but that’s from one village centre to the town centre at the other end, and if timed properly would take about 40-45 mins (16 mins DART, 16 mins bus and 10 mins waiting). Re-routing all DARTs to Malahide means a 10 minute frequency and the 102 will increase to every 20 mins Monday-Friday when it becomes the L81.

    BusConnects will deliver more options as the remaining orbital routes are rolled out across the city - the W4 for example now gives a viable option for many linking Blanchardstown with Lucan and Clondalkin. Increasing the frequency of those is the key so that people aren’t waiting long for connections.

    But as I say people will always need cars for some orbital trips as the origin points and destinations can be so diverse.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,522 ✭✭✭StudentDad


    Nevermind the larger towns and cities. Where I am you need a car. There isn't a decent local bus service. The cherry on top? You have to then pay for parking (if you can find any) in town. In their wisdom the local council installed pay as you go bikes. A decent bus service? No. Pay as you go bikes that are dotted around the place like someone with a bike litter fetish? Yes! Not a whole lot of use to anyone in the bucketing down rain, trying to get to a meeting or anything else half useful and you get to pay per minute to use them. Wow!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,831 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    100% agree with what you're saying, but there is lies the rub

    Those orbital trips are the killers in terms of traffic. The very odd time when I drive the motorcycle into town I notice that once I'm past the canals the traffic is mostly ok. I don't actually think there is that much traffic in town relative to the orbital traffic outside the canals.

    And you're right, fixing that going to be very difficult, particularly given how narrow many of the roads are and the underlying road layout.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,945 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Ah yes, the problems of our planning system, allowing people to build and live in houses away from towns and cities. They complain if you won't let them build because of the lack of services, and they complain about the lack of services if you let them build.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,151 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    To be fair the Connecting Ireland programme is rolling out a massive increase in regular rural bus routes and increasing frequency on many existing ones. It is a five year project but there have been a lot of changes since it started last year.

    Many of the once a week Bus Éireann routes are being replaced by Local Link services that have several departures each day, but it will take time to roll them all out.

    Other Bus Éireann routes have seen a large increase in frequency and new connections made - for example Killarney to Kenmare is nearly hourly all day now, and there’s an extension to Skibbereen every three hours which didn’t exist before. Athlone to Drogheda a new service that operates every two hours. They’re two examples of improvements.

    If you look at this thread it has been documenting all of the new services as they happen.

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058215586/connecting-ireland-project-launched/p1

    Post edited by LXFlyer on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,776 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    All of those ideas are 30-50 year ideas. We need better public transport now, this year. The only immediate option is more buses on the road, and giving buses priority over private car traffic.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,831 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    But do you not think the quick fix solution is what got us to where we are in the first place?

    I get what you're saying, we're running out of time fast. And that's compounded even more by the fact the population increased by 2% in the last 12 months, most of which is probably in the greater Dublin area.



  • Registered Users Posts: 760 ✭✭✭Slightly Kwackers


    Thanks, I suppose I do see things from a narrow perspective, but so little public transport coupled with traffic queues on the way in and out of town is a tad frustrating.

    If I dispense with the car a taxi journey is fifty euro either way.

    Incidentally the main route in serves quite a number of villages and the only buses that are seen with any frequency are school buses. There are two that go past my gate at least twice a day, so obviously a regular service wouldn't be difficult to provide. One wonders just what percentage of parents use the bus anyway, the risky bits of the trip are SUV's parked and pulling out around schools.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    We needed better public transport 15-20 years ago, not just now….it was known then but we haven’t got it.

    the prevalence of the private car is because public transport is so shît is unreal.

    when I lived in Paris and if I did again, not for a single second would I contemplate using a car. An unbelievable and fantastically integrated metro, RER, tram and suburban rail system…. Buses too but I never bothered with them…



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