Let's Be Honest Public Transport in Ireland is an Abominaiton Because it is Meant to Be...

ArcadiaJunction · 21-09-2023 5:01pm #1

I was looking over the current progress for the Dublin Metro and it is entirely conceivable that we could wait a half-century before anyone gets on a train. One simple metro line when were should be on our third and fourth metro line by now. Yes, I know about the planning issues, the legalities, and the NIMBYs but it still does not account for where we are in late 2023. Navan could be opened in a year and all the passing loops and so on needed to create capacity the same. Yet the timelines presented are truly staggering and offered up as if we should be impressed. It is truly astounding. Rather than the politicians and civil servants being embarrassed and trying to solve and streamline these bottlenecks out of the way, I am now fully convinced that the politicians and civil servants - if anything - pander to the bottlenecks on purpose as a kind of sabotage.

I honestly can't say for sure why this is, but there is a genuine and evidential clandestine war on public transport (mostly in Dublin) by the state and its bureaucrats. They are constantly on the lookout to find ways to kick the can down the road for all eternity.

mazdamiatamx5 · 21-09-2023 5:02pm

Basically agree.

ArcadiaJunction · 21-09-2023 5:05pm

This gentleman came to do a consultation on Dublin bike lanes in 2013 and in the video he is literally shocked that nothing has been done apart from bike graphics painted on regular traffic roads.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKn84SQ6-bg

ArcadiaJunction · 21-09-2023 5:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121139583#Comment_121139583

and remember this is a country with Green party in Government and the other parties claiming to be signed up to their policies. Compare that to what the Tories have delivered in the UK (Crossrail, Oxford-Cambridge lines, and HS2 charging along) and things really begin to take on a truly disturbing perspective.

tom1ie · 21-09-2023 5:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058314814/lets-be-honest-public-transport-in-ireland-is-an-abominaiton-because-it-is-meant-to-be

Blame lies with under resourcing of ABP.

The minister responsible is Darragh o Brien:

For all housing, planning or heritage related queries please don’t hesitate to contact:

Email: minister@housing.gov.ie

Phone: 01-8882000

Postal address: Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Custom House, Dublin 1, D01 W6X0

mazdamiatamx5 · 21-09-2023 5:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121139592#Comment_121139592

Speaking as a former Green Party member , they've never had much interest in rail. Strange people.

mazdamiatamx5 · 21-09-2023 5:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121139592#Comment_121139592

Indeed.

Sam Russell · 21-09-2023 5:51pm

Eamonn Ryan canvassed NYMBY voters in Beechwood/Cowper who were against Metrolink. He should have been pressing for it to go ahead as fast as possible. Instead, it has been truncated and delayed hugely.

He is in pursuit of perfect Green policies rather than getting realistic policies implemented. He wants the M20 to consist of town by-passes rather than a Cork to Limerick motorway. He wants a direct Limerick Cork railway line on a new alignment rather than double tracking the Limerick to LJ line.

He is in favour of off shore wind even though there is no realistic of any of that happening within a decade. He is in favour of a 'hydrogen based economy' despite that one has not even invented yet.

He is away with the birds.

ArcadiaJunction · 21-09-2023 5:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121139623#Comment_121139623

Do you actually believe he gives a shite and will act accordingly? Really?

ArcadiaJunction · 21-09-2023 5:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121139809#Comment_121139809

Perhaps the most destructive politician in the history of the state.

ArcadiaJunction · 21-09-2023 5:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121139724#Comment_121139724

I recall 20 years back Cuffe asked to have himself removed from some Dublin Transport Activist Group and the following night he was fawning over the Athenry to Collooney 'solution' on RTE. Literally had tears in his eyes looking at the map some gombeen councilor in Mayo was showing him.

Sam Russell · 21-09-2023 5:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121139824#Comment_121139824

No, we have had worse - much worse.

gjim · 21-09-2023 7:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121139824#Comment_121139824

Don’t be daft. Ryan gets a huge amount of undeserved stick but in reality he’s been the best and most effective Minister for Transport for years. BusConnects, DART+ and ML collectively represent the biggest investment in PT transport in Dublin since independence and he has pushed on with all three including securing cabinet commitment to funding for all of them which is more that can be said for the pre-GFC metronorth and dartu plans. I can’t imagine any other as minister advancing the dramatic expansion of the greenway system as much as he has - from a few km in Mayo to 100s of km today. Despite his dalliance with Danville NIMBYs, since becoming minister, he’s quietly pushed on with ML. He’s turned the entire transport budget focus on its head where previous ministers were happy to continue with status quo of 90% of spending on roads. Even if imperfectly implemented, there’s been a huge expansion of cycling infrastructure/lanes in many cities.

You think the likes of Shane Ross did better? History will look kindly on Ryan’s record. The best hope for PT in Ireland is for Ryan to stay in this role in the next government - unfortunately it seems it’s fashionable to slag Ryan, but be careful of what you wish fo assuming you care at all about public transport in Ireland - given the history of the Ministry, it’s more than likely the next minister will be a dud or worse, will pause and review the current project list to death.

Cal4567 · 21-09-2023 7:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121139592#Comment_121139592

When you put it that, it is very telling. I'm in the UK a lot and as most people here should be aware their, the Tories, public service remit including transport infrastructure is poor.

No way on earth will we ever reach any climate or transport targets. I take with a pinch of salt any forward estimates any of our politicians come out with.

tom1ie · 21-09-2023 7:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121139813#Comment_121139813

Nope.

But ABP are the reason your starting this thread.

Charles Babbage · 21-09-2023 7:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121140114#Comment_121140114

Greenways may well be desireable, but they are not transport in any meaningful sense, Most people just travel up and back for recreation.

There has been little enough progress on the mass movement of people.

Charles Babbage · 21-09-2023 7:24pm

...

tom1ie · 21-09-2023 8:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121140114#Comment_121140114

Bus connects, dart plus and metro link aren’t ER plans though?

Don’t forget he actively tried to delay metro link with his crayon drawing.

What bus connects corridors have been built under his watch?

What new luas lines or dart lines have been built under his watch?

Has he delivered ANPR cameras?

corks finest · 21-09-2023 8:16pm

Greens aren’t helping

that langer in charge of transport has underspent by e2 hundred million

corks finest · 21-09-2023 8:17pm

He’s a bloody abomination of a transport minister

corks finest · 21-09-2023 8:18pm

AKA an awful gobshite

Sam Russell · 21-09-2023 8:33pm

Mod: Can we cut the abuse against someone not represented on this forum.

He may have his failings, but being abusive says more about the poster than the object of the abuse.

gjim · 21-09-2023 8:50pm

"Bus connects, dart plus and metro link aren’t ER plans though?"

Exactly. And this attitude is a perfect example of why nothing gets done in the country. Every new minister - because they don't "own" the plans, orders "reviews", rethinks, etc. over everything initiated by their predecessor predecessor.

Ryan, despite me expecting the worst given his Danville avenue antics (back in 2018 - two years before becoming minister), did no such thing and quietly dropped his stated policy to start a full review of MetroLink once he became minister and just pushed ahead with what the NTA had come up with.

"Greenways may well be desireable, but they are not transport in any meaningful sense"

They're funded from transport budget - and they support a variety of uses including commuting and tourist travel. I know that Shane Ross added the square root of f-all in terms of greenways - the money was spent on roads instead.

"What new luas lines or dart lines have been built under his watch?"

He's only been minister for a bit over 3 years ffs and half of that was during Covid - and he's being blamed for a century of underinvestment in public transport.

He did his one job - which is to secure funding in cabinet for the big projects and they've all advanced in terms of engineering, planning and financing. Planned transport spending on infrastructure has gone from the 9:1 in favour of roads for the last few decades to 2:1 in favour of public transport. There has never been such a commitment to spending on public transport.

"He’s a bloody abomination of a transport minister"

Name a better minister of transport over last 2 or 3 decades, then.

gjim · 21-09-2023 8:59pm

Btw - if you search my comments, I was happily sticking the boot into Ryan during his first year along with the rest of the mob. I've slowly changed my mind basically given his performance since. I suggest stepping back and try to consider his performance objectively without prejudice and particularly in the context of past transport ministers. I've been interested in/following the woeful state of PT in Ireland for decades - I've never, in all that time, been more optimistic that we are finally about to achieve major leap forward.

end of the road · 21-09-2023 10:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121139592#Comment_121139592

this would be the hs2 which has had most of it canceled because the tories can't do cost control?

gone from a network covering the major cities to a line from a parkway to a station built on a former rail depot, it won't even go to the termini of either london or bermingham.

yes the tories have invested but it's not been without cuts and over runs to the projects that mean they can't deliver their full potential.

Charles Babbage · 22-09-2023 12:06am

Greenways certainly support tourist activity and may well be justified for that reason. But if they were any real use for commuting then they should put the railways back on them, in the 26 counties the greenways are mostly in sparsely populated scenic locations that are nice for tourists but not commuting corridors, the Comber line in Belfast is one where they should have put rails (albeit tram rails) back rather than having a greenway.

Ryan has been better for public transport than previous ministers to be sure, and I compliment recent efforts on transport outside the major urban areas, but he has preferred to obstruct roads rather than advance high capacity PT alternatives.

whisky_galore · 22-09-2023 4:30am

Here's your problem, right here.

"I am now fully convinced that the politicians and civil servants - if anything - pander to the bottlenecks on purpose as a kind of sabotage."

Politicians and senior civil servants, by and large don't use public transport. Using it is beneath them. Politicians will take credit and pose for cameras and cut ribbons but they won't be seen dead on it themselves.

PT is for the poors and in this country it will always be of bare minimum, poorly funded, Aldi bargain bin standard.

Ryan gets stick but he's a terrible communicator, comes out with some ridiculous brain farts. He has made the green cause hugely unpopular outside of the affluent largely urban fanbase.

hans aus dtschl · 22-09-2023 8:32am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141391#Comment_121141391

Strong agree with a lot of this.

Public transport is for poor people. Rich and successful people have cars. That's the Irish mindset of the past 50-60 years.

BUT I believe it's changing now for the first time, albeit slowly.

I never in my life saw the amount of investment in bus and rail that I'm now seeing, so I give the government kudos for that. My local bus route frequency has gone up, it's hours of service have increased, and I'd wager that the ridership has increased massively. The price has decreased. I've found myself using the bus routinely this year for the first time in around a decade: this is significant for me, as I have access to multiple cars and drive a lot.

And with regards greenways V transport, the greenways near me shadow working commuter rail lines. I have long argued that there should be pedestrian/cycle segregation rather than greenway (mixed) but I have - despite myself - found myself using them for commuting. So they are working for some transport. Maybe they can be more effective, maybe they can be designed better, but they're giving me a safer commute where I previously was on the road.

Rather than the thread title, I would say it's more like "Public Transport in Ireland is an abomination because we have a long-standing cultural belief that it's for people who can't afford a car, which everyone aspires to drive".

whisky_galore · 22-09-2023 9:04am

To add to the above Colm McCarthy, an economist who has railed against DART and Luas is still given the time of day. Hopefully he is the last of yesterdays men with influence. Wouldn't Dublin look nice now with neither DART or Luas?

Sam Russell · 22-09-2023 9:25am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141391#Comment_121141391

Todd Andrews (he who closed the Harcourt line) was head of CIE, and he received a deputation from Kerry of councillors who were objecting to the closure of a little used line in Kerry.

His first question to them was 'Can I see your train tickets?'

Of course they did not travel by train, and therefor had no tickets to show. He ran them out of his office - if they do not use the trains, then why complain when the line closes. When lines are/were threatened with closure, protest were made by all those who liked the idea of the line but never ever used it.

And that is a major problem with public transport in Ireland - and I suspect worldwide. Those that make decisions on public transport do not use it of necessity - or at all.

Why do CIE managers get company cars? They just need 'golden' train/bus passes.

Economics101 · 22-09-2023 9:33am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121142063#Comment_121142063

I think that the reason Todd Andrews asked for the West Cork lobby's train tickets was that he knew you couldn't get from W Cork to Dublin and back in a day by train. Cheap but clever trick on his part.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121140456#Comment_121140456

Very likely this is due to the ABP mess, which is way beyond Eamon Ryan's responsibility. Several projscts have been with ABP for ages.

DirectorKrennic · 22-09-2023 9:41am

This is just entirely my own opinion but I think a big problem with Ireland is the lack of infrastructure in general ranging from lack of 'street cars' the way they have them in many big cities like Sydney and Toronto and the lack of an underground metro. I'd love if Ireland did less on current expenditure (a bit of a tax cut for everyone every year and a bit of an increase in social welfare - puts more money in all our pockets but doesn't stop rent going up and electricity bills etc.) and ring fenced money for infrastructure projects that actually get built.

I'd say a decent amount of people agree with me on this I think - there is a group that think the above is a lost cause so might as well have the tax cuts - and then some people agree with me but then say 'Okay but who's going to actually build this, and prices of materials have gone up and maybe the time to build was 2008 etc.'.

I don't know, I just sometimes feel Ireland doesn't really have a plan for the future. I mean most countries don't seem to have a plan in the West anymore. Portugal built a big underground and 'future proofed it' - it's so big it can handle years of population growth. Egypt are building a 2nd capital city from scratch.

To get a metro built though, and houses built etc. I honestly think it'd almost be easier to build a city from scratch at this point. Sounds bonkers when you first hear it but there is a lot of NIMBY in this country.

Anyway I'm not running the country, this is just my opinion!

whisky_galore · 22-09-2023 10:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121142063#Comment_121142063

This is a story that does the rounds usually it is the West Cork in the telling, it makes for a good story but did it even happen?

whisky_galore · 22-09-2023 10:35am

I just sometimes feel Ireland doesn't really have a plan for the future...

Quite true, we are really, really hopeless at this.

ArcadiaJunction · 22-09-2023 11:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121142366#Comment_121142366

The plan for the future is one thing only: Massive pensions for public sector staff.

Nothing else.

Sam Russell · 22-09-2023 3:23pm

The last census was a surprise.

We have suddenly realised we have a population of over 5 million.

We have also been surprised to realise we have infrastructure that would struggle with a population of 4 million, but not enough houses for most of the 4 million, but loads of mobile phones and cars - enough for six million.

So, can we build the infrastructure - probably, but we need more time.

Ballincollig Blow In · 22-09-2023 5:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141020#Comment_121141020

As dislikable as the Tories are, even with the stripped back nature of HS2, it will still be absolute light years ahead of anything that currently exists in this country or will ever exist for that matter.

If the final version ends up being Old Oak Common to Birmingham Curzon Street, then they’ll have built the largest new station in the UK (OOC) which will serve HS2 and the Elizabeth line (another piece of infrastructure this country could only dream of).

It will also have connections to the west coast main line going to Paddington and the West/Southwest UK as well as the planned London Overground station for OOC to link in with the overground network.

None of that even touches on the fact it’s only 5 mins away from North Acton tube station, 15 mins away from Willesden Junction and maybe 30 mins tops away from East Acton and Acton Main Line.

The Brits are complaining about the Tories cost cutting and that it wont run to Euston. Angry that they wont get another brand new multi billion pound extension to Euston and what Ive outlined above about OOC “isnt good enough”.

Thats not even touching on the Birmingham side of things or any of the stuff in between. Curzon street is in the city centre. It will be directly connected to the existing Moor street station, and a 5 min walk to New Street station. They are already working on extending the West Midlands metro so it also integrates with it when Curzon street is built.

We can’t even double track a few miles of existing railway from Limerick to Limerick Junction. That’s how pathetic we are.

It’s all well and good dumping on the Tories and their cost cutting if we were a country with good railways and infrastructure, but we’re not. As crap as they are, they will still deliver infrastructure the likes of which Ireland wont see for at least a few hundred years (if ever) going by the current glacial state of anything to get built here.

end of the road · 22-09-2023 6:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121142089#Comment_121142089

we have got to remember that andrews wanted the west cork closed for his own political reasoning rather then viability or profit and loss.

i'm not talking about the branches which indeed would not have survived anyway, but the main line, which dispite being suggested for closure in the 1957 report, was modernised instead.

he was never going to listen to any protests or any deputations, even if the deputation that it is claimed went to see him existed, and had showed their tickets he would have found some other reasoning not to hear them out.

he apparently actually wanted the east cork branch closed as well, but was stifled on that score.

end of the road · 22-09-2023 6:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121142287#Comment_121142287

nobody seems to know, it's probably like this supposed 10 year rule that railways have to be left in situ after closure, which i suspect is based on the north kerry line being left for so long between permanent closure and lifting.

end of the road · 22-09-2023 6:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121144237#Comment_121144237

a lot of the aspects of the project that it integrates with were delivered by non-tory sources.

the fact is that a very credible project which could have delivered so much, will now deliver very little.

just because the tories have kept the project going does not mean very much, and to say it is light years ahead of anything here is a bit much when grown up countries have being delivering high speed lines for decades and those lines generally have delivered more from day 1 then hs2 ever would have if built in full.

i am very much a supporter of hs2, for capacity reasons, but even i can see the many, many faults with it and that it will no doubt damage the cause of big projects long term, which is a great, great pity.

ArcadiaJunction · 22-09-2023 7:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121144439#Comment_121144439

So nothing was built in the UK then because of 'Tories' - gotcha, so Crossrail and HS2 construction is all in my mind while our Carbon-friendly Irish government delivered everything. Thanks for clearing that up.

Cookiemunster · 23-09-2023 11:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121142366#Comment_121142366

No plans for the future? Metrolink? DART+? Bus Connects, Cork regional rail? The recent MATS plans for the cities? The even more recent cross border rail review?

On the contrary there are massive plans for the future. Irelands issue has never been no plans for the future, it's always been implementing any of these plans.

Cookiemunster · 23-09-2023 11:51am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121144237#Comment_121144237

We can’t even double track a few miles of existing railway from Limerick to Limerick Junction. That’s how pathetic we are.

Sorry, what? We can and will double track this line. This reason it wasn't done previously was that there was little to no interest in improving rail in the country. That attitude has changed and this is one of the easy win projects that will happen.

We don't need a high speed line like HS2. We're a low density country whose demographics doesn't justify such a system.

whisky_galore · 23-09-2023 12:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121146442#Comment_121146442

Planning and implementing those plans, you knew that of course but you want to score some pedantic brownie points by appearing to be smart.

KrisW1001 · 23-09-2023 3:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121144581#Comment_121144581

Funding of Crossrail was a Labour bill. Construction began in 2009. One of the first acts of the Conservative-Liberal coalition was to cut its funding, adding a year to the project in the process...

HS2 began on 2010, when the Conservative-Liberal coalition approved the proposal produced by the previous Labour government. The stripping back of this project began once the Conservatives were in power alone.

You have to ignore a lot of facts to paint the UK Conservative Party as being in favour of rail transport infrastructure..

.. and if we're going to compare foreign countries' policies to ours, isn't it time we stopped looking at the UK? Aping their bad ideas on rail has got us into a lot of our current mess..

Cookiemunster · 23-09-2023 4:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121146518#Comment_121146518

You said Ireland doesn't have a plan for the future. That is definitely not the same thing as planning and implementing the plans which you claim the country doesn't plan.

Anyway, planning and implementation is underway on multiple projects. Metrolink, DART+ and Bus Connects are with ABP. Preliminary work has started on Metrolink. Dublin bus routes have already been changed for Bus Connects. The contractor has been announced to resignal the Cork Middleton line.

It could be way faster if ABP was actually a functional body, but there are definitely plans and implementation of these plans is definitely underway.

Zebra3 · 23-09-2023 6:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121147150#Comment_121147150

On the last bit fully agree.

Ireland probably best compared with Denmark and Dublin with Copenhagen.

Charles Babbage · 23-09-2023 10:52pm

I was in Norway over the summer, which has long lines to Bergan and Stavanger from Norway. These are electrified, which is wise in Norway where electricity was nearly free at some times owing to the earlier floods and the consequent availability of hydro power. The Bergen train over 6 hours, which implies a speed including stops of around 50 Kmh and the Stavenger train is not even that fast. These lines are scenic and the engineering is tricky, but they have not prioritised speed.

Ronald Binge Redux · 25-09-2023 8:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121146464#Comment_121146464

And this is the problem. All rail projects in the Republic are low hanging fruit ripe to be cancelled because The Powers That (Presently) Be see them as a reward for post development rather than a prerequisite for it.

Ronald Binge Redux · 25-09-2023 8:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121147439#Comment_121147439

I wouldn't be too proud about any of that. Implementation is a joke here because Official Ireland [at Present] sees colouredy lines on maps for a press release as a launch. Nicely oaked chardonnay and cheese on crackers go down much better with the press than actual shovels in the ground.

Charles Babbage · 25-09-2023 9:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121153632#Comment_121153632

Quite. There needs to be people getting on at stations, that is implementation.

Let's Be Honest Public Transport in Ireland is an Abominaiton Because it is Meant to Be...

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