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M11/N11 - M50 (J4) to Coyne's Cross (J14) [options published]

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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,345 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    It was in the Wicklow Times too, although John Brady claiming credit for the Council decision in that one! Mentioned that they're getting ahead of the planned upgrade in Bus service.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,157 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    Any indication as to who will operate the new bus service?



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,992 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    I received an email about this scheme today. Text reproduced hereunder. The PDF announcement of the public display event can be found here.


    "Over the past number of years, Wicklow County Council has been progressing two separate projects aimed at collectively resolving the transportation deficiencies on the N11/M11 Corridor in the medium and longer term.

    The N11/M11 Junction 4 to Junction 14 Improvement Scheme commenced in November 2018. Phase 2 of the project concluded in late 2021, with the announcement and public display of a preferred option for the scheme. In January 2022, it was confirmed that funding would not be available to Wicklow County Council to progress the project to the next phase and further development of the scheme was paused.

    The N11/M11 Bus Priority Interim Scheme commenced in October 2021 following the completion of an initial Feasibility Study. The overriding objective of this project is to develop a proposal for the provision of bus priority on the N11/M11, enabling buses/coaches to avoid congested traffic lanes and reducing the unsustainable dependency on the private car. The extent of the scheme covers the section of existing N11/M11 route from Loughlinstown roundabout in Shankill to the north as far as Junction 9 (Glenview) in the south with no further interventions currently proposed beyond this point. Further information on this project is available via the project website: https://n11m11bpis.ie/. The project has progressed through Phase 2 in 2022/2023 and a preferred option has now been recommended by the Project Team.

    Public Display Event

    The public, stakeholders and interested parties, are invited to attend this public display to view information on the Preferred Option identified for the N11/M11 Bus Priority Interim Scheme, the work undertaken to date and the programme for advancement of the project.

    This non-statutory consultation event also provides an opportunity for feedback and observations to be submitted regarding the process and conclusions reached to date, which may inform the further development of the scheme in the next phases.

    The public display event will be held in the Glenview Hotel, Glen of the Downs, on Tuesday 12th September 2023 between 12.00 noon and 8.00pm. All information supporting the recommendation of the Preferred Option shall be made available through the project website from 12.00 noon on Tuesday 12th September 2023. Further information relating to this public display and consultation period here.

    Wicklow County Council values the opinion of the community on this project and welcomes feedback and submissions from the public and interested parties. The knowledge gained from the engagement will be considered by the project team as part of the next stages of the development of the scheme."



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,992 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    From the PDF:

    The public display documents will also be available to view on the project website www.n11m11bpis.ie from 12:00 noon on Tuesday 12th September 2023.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,254 ✭✭✭prunudo


    I know they say the jn4-jn14 project is paused but will be interesting to see how this new jn4-jn9 buslane project will impact on any future upgrades for the jn4-jn9 section.

    Hopefully they don't box themselves in too much and cause themselves problems in the future, but alas we have form for that in this country, even within past upgrades on this section.



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  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,841 ✭✭✭hometruths


    I suspect boxing themselves in might be exactly what they are trying to do with regards to J4 to J14 project.

    currently then cannot widen the Glen to improve road to motorway status because of the Habitats directive, since technically there are other alternatives.

    If your objective is to widen the Glen and comply with the Habitat s directive, the smart option would be to install a bus lane right up to the door of the Glen.

    And then subsequently claim you wish to widen the Glen in order to extend the bus lane. In that scenario there are no other alternatives and then they can crack on.

    once it is widened if they decide to scrap the bus lane in order to make it a complete motorway, no problem, width and spec of road is already there so no problem with the Habitats directive.

    Job done.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,599 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Motorway hard shoulders exist for a purpose. I wouldn't mind if they maintained the hard shoulder as well as add a bus priority lane. Of course this is Ireland so that won't happen.

    The UK is scrambling to undo smart motorways because of the hard shoulder issue.

    Also we all know why this "interim" solution really exists - to bide time until the bike salesman is out of transport.



  • Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭Norteño


    What is also bad, is something I see regularly on older "Type 1" (modern equivalent) stretches of single carriageway, whereby they let the verges grow over the hard shoulder, and eventually we're lucky if they even cut the grass that's grown over them.

    Seems like an awful waste, and a step back in terms of safety, for the sake of some extra tarmac come resurfacing time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,813 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    The Perferred Option for the N11/M11 Bus Priority Interim Scheme will go on public display tomorrow at 12 noon.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,881 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    AFAIK it's basically the same as the one displayed last year with minor modifications. Nothing happens quickly around here.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 28,457 ✭✭✭✭murpho999


    I don't get the logic behind this scheme.

    So you drive to a car park and get a bus to Shankhill and then what? How do you get to your final destination and how do you get back to your car?

    How would this help people who commute to Dublin suburbs/city by car?

    Am I missing something?



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,881 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    new proposals are online: https://n11m11bpis.ie/publications/

    includes closing the Enniskerry junction and building a service road / closing LILOs between J6 and J7 on the southbound side (can't remember if these were in the previous version, though they were in the bigger scheme that's currently on hold, so it looks like they're trying to get bits of that done under the guise of "bus priority").

    the buses will go into the City (and possibly other destinations like Sandyford, that's still TBC), why would they only go to Shankill?



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,254 ✭✭✭prunudo


    That's interesting, not sure if it was yourself or another poster who mentioned in the past that this may be how they get the project to move along. Close junctions, which are problematic for traffic flow, in the guise of the bus lane project.


    Its just a shame they didn't have the will or drive to see through the main scheme last year. Yes there were compromises, but overly it was a pragmatic plan imo.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,457 ✭✭✭✭murpho999


    Ok thanks, not very clear to me as I just see bus route going into Shankill.

    Anyhow hopefully it's a success.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,254 ✭✭✭prunudo


    Few initial thoughts.

    -The bus lane looks quite broken up, particularly north bound, seems like left/nearside traffic will have to allow the buses rejoin main line as a regular occurrence.

    -Not only will Herbert road jn close but it will be turned into a cul-de-sac. I expect big push back from residents over that.

    -Appears they intend to join 20 bends road to Berryfield lane roundabout and to then access jn6. Again, I expect big push back from residents here too.

    -Nice to see active travel routes along the route.

    -Also I see the plan includes replacing Kilarney rd. roundabout with a signal controlled junction. Time will tell how that works out.

    -Revised layout at Kilmac, with direct lilo access to replace mini roundabout and garage will no longer have access to n11. This will help with buses imo, as often they get delayed with cars queuing for the garage.


    -Edit:- Also noticed that new access roads from Quill rd. will be created for Moorepark cottages and somw private residence.

    Post edited by prunudo on


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,345 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    It's not really cars queing for the garage that cause the blockage in Kilmac for buses (and the R755), it's all the illegally parked vehicles on the double yellows on the opposite the garage.

    It's been discussed in the thread before - there's already demand for Park and Ride - you can see that at various Wexford bus stops, Ashford House having to put in paid parking, wands having to be put up at the Glenview bus stop...



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,254 ✭✭✭prunudo


    Yeah, there's a combination of factors at play there. Still good to see it being redesigned though, so as not to impede access to n11.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,881 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    Not only will Herbert road jn close but it will be turned into a cul-de-sac. I expect big push back from residents over that.

    I hadn't noticed that. Both there and at Kilmac you have service roads that become "shared active travel" routes with access to private houses and fields. How do you stop people from just continuing along those routes? will there be some sort of barrier that only residents or farmers can open?

    Appears they intend to join 20 bends road to Berryfield lane roundabout and to then access jn6. Again, I expect big push back from residents here too.

    this will transfer a fair bit of traffic from J7 to J6 - anyone travelling south and going to Enniskerry. Though I note they have a route marked between J7 and the Enniskerry road "to be investigated in phase 3"



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,254 ✭✭✭prunudo


    this will transfer a fair bit of traffic from J7 to J6 - anyone travelling south and going to Enniskerry

    I suppose this will be a good thing for the traffic flow on jn7 and will utilise jn6 more.


    Regarding the service roads and active travel routes, not sure how they plan to segregate these. I presume bollards or traffic islands.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,881 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    actually looking again at the maps, between Herbert Rd and J7 there's just one driveway and they're proposing to provide access to it from the back, so that route could be bollarded off. Between J8 and J9 it's just field accesses after the cottages so possibly they'll just close those gates off and give the farmer some cash to improve farm road access from the lanes behind. I'm not sure I've ever seen those gates being used anyway.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,254 ✭✭✭prunudo


    Little bit on the main scheme, interesting words from the councillor. Only €2.5m to progress the scheme to next stage but funding is being held back. Seems he could be onto something. Very small money in the grand scheme of things.




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,972 ✭✭✭Plastik


    Some nice ideas on the latest scheme. I like the offline cycle route from j6 to Ballywaltrim lane. Often thought that access from the current hard shoulder to Ballywaltrim should've been done a long time ago. There's a little path there but it's only navigable by mountain bike. Still not on board with the cycle lane sbound on N11 to Glenview when there is a much more viable Quill Road alternative already in place.

    Would like to hear more on the rationale for lights instead of roundabout at Hills Garage. Very busy spot from 3 of the 4 directions. Lights will regulate a lot of the current trouble some routes currently have getting onto the roundabout at busy times, but at the expense of other queuing.

    I like what they're trying to do with the new section of road on the 20bends.



  • Registered Users Posts: 255 ✭✭AAAAAAAAA


    What a hilarious question, obviously the answer is no, which is why we have an incredibly crappy bodge job pretending to be suburban rail. Maybe when the line erodes into the sea they will consider it, despite Wicklow supposed to be an area of considerable population growth in the next 30 years.



  • Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭Norteño




  • Registered Users Posts: 7,254 ✭✭✭prunudo


    I see a local Councillor is organising a meeting to 'rally opposition' to the closure of Herbert rd and Enniskerry junctions and also the removal of roundabout at Hills garage for traffic controlled junction.

    Like with the previous proposals, when pragmatic solutions are suggested people still aren't happy and end up delaying or cancelling much needed infrastructure improvements.

    Everyone gives out about the traffic congestion, yet when they bring out plans, people don't appreciate the constraints that engineers and designers are working too.,



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,881 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    yeah, it's seriously kicking off on the Bray facebook groups about this. I've no strong opinions on it TBH but they are right in that all the cars that currently use Herbert Road will now have to use the already congested J6 or J7 and then go through the town. There's not much benefit for Bray residents who don't generally use the N11 bus services so it's understandable they're complaining.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,868 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Herbert Road has a connection to a dual carriageway that should be closed tomorrow. The church and the hairpin bend that e is absolutely no way for a dual carriageway to connect with any road. Its insanity, and the residents should take that into account in their complaining.

    The problem is, if a link road was created somewhere to alleviate that situation as part of the upgrade, the same residents would still complain. Something has to give somewhere.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,813 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Have any of the Bray residents who don't generally use the N11 bus suggested anything which can be done which would benefit them? Even in their wildest dreams, do they have any ideas of what could be done? Or do they think that not doing anything will see things get better rather than worse? The only thing which could be done for Herbert Road would involve a bridge across the river and there is nowhere that could be proposed which wouldn't see huge opposition.

    Making improvements to facilitate more and faster bus servives will ultimately benefit everyone, less cars on the road means less traffic for those who continue to use their car to contend with. I think more for buses should be done at J7. I'd make the triangle there one way with a general traffic and a bus lane on each side. Basically, one way towards the N11 between the two roundabouts, one way northbound up by Hills, and one way southbound on the third side where the cycle lanes are. Then create a bus only link from the roundabout on Southern Cross Road at Supervalue onto the road behind and you could then provide a bus serving the residential areas which get onto the N11 faster than a car.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,254 ✭✭✭prunudo


    I don't have a problem with public meetings, but he's being disingenuous when he says the the Enniskerry turn will be closed. Yes it will be closed but the solution is to have it connected to jn6 which imo, will mean less traffic using the hills 'roundabout' junction.

    Also I wonder how many people are exiting Herbert rd only to exit n11 at jn7 again. The thing that skips most peoples view is that the n11 isn't supposed to be used as a local road, which is why the original plan had many benefits. But as usual everyone is outraged and nobody wants to compromise how they currently use the road.


    @Pete_Cavan I like that idea of making the triangle one way. Wasn't sure what you were referring to at first but it would actually be great use of roads and probably make for freer flowing junction.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,881 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    Also I wonder how many people are exiting Herbert rd only to exit n11 at jn7 again.

    I don't think the numbers doing that are significant, it would only be worth your while if you were living at the end of Herbert Rd and going to somewhere on the Southern X and even then it's probably of marginal time benefit.



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