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BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,579 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    I’m sorry but that is absolute BS.

    There was massive publicity across the city on all the media, on the sides of buses and on bus shelters about the revised network consultation back in 2018 when the first consultation took place, along with a load of public roadshows and over 28,000 people made submissions.

    The second consultation was in 2019 and again had a lot of feedback.

    The two rounds of consultation were on the entire proposed network - not just one or two routes. This was entirely separate to the infrastructure proposals.

    You would have had to not read any newspaper, not watch radio or tv or not look around you at bus stops or at buses passing to not be aware that there were consultations ongoing.

    It was a massive news story at the time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,579 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Also, the buses for the O Route are ready - they are in storage pending the charging infrastructure being put in place.

    Now as to when that is due to be completed, I’m not sure.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,869 ✭✭✭trellheim


    LXFlyer rather than engage in pointless debate with you, I disagree 100% and its borne out with questioning to most of the residents on my estate. Not a scooby is known about Busconnects or the spines and we have well over 100 houses.


    You roll out that line every time and you are entitled to your opinion. I'm not here to score points or change your view.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,579 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Ah come on, the network redesign got massive publicity at the time. It is entirely separate from the infrastructure project.

    And yes I will say it every time in relation to the network redesign (as opposed to the infrastructure corridors (btw they are not the spines - the spines are the bus routes), as I cannot recall a transport project that got so much coverage across the city and such a massive reaction. The first draft of the plan had to be basically redesigned from scratch due to the scale of the replies from the public.

    It got the biggest response of any public consultation held in the country I believe.

    How did all those people know and you and all your neighbours apparently don’t? It’s stretching credibility to be honest.

    You and all of your neighbours must, I can only conclude, live in a news vacuum, and have appalling local representatives (it was the biggest issue for local councillors in 2018).

    Given that you’re obviously online what’s to stop you or anyone else looking at the BusConnects website where all of the information is freely available?

    https://busconnects.ie/cities/dublin/new-dublin-area-bus-network/



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,869 ✭✭✭trellheim


    CGCSB not that many people get off the 46a at Phibsboro on the inward journey, quite a few always for boarding. , a fair few get on at the church outbound which is surprising . People getting off the 46a Phibsboro is no use to anyone for citybound as its a longer and less frequent journey to town via the 4 or otherwise .

    Going the other direction removes the fast frequent ( and direct ) service to the Zoo, Grangegorman, Mater, Mountjoy prison from a huge amount of the southside . Even in the old days they werent silly enough to pull the No.10 without replacing it with another citybound service


    I'd add that most northbound 46a are rammed all day long from parnell sq and it doesnt ease off till half way down the NCR.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,287 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    I've observed lots of people changing I'm phibsboro to get buses to ballymun and finglas. I do it myself often and see lots of people doing same. I'm not saying removing the 46a entirely is a great idea, I'm not convinced of that myself.



  • Registered Users Posts: 115 ✭✭tubbs26


    Ignore, my point was made already



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,665 Mod ✭✭✭✭dfx-


    The 46a is madly busy between the park and parnell sq at an 8 minute frequency in both directions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,287 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    The 8 minute frequency is fan fiction. There are regularly 20 minute gaps and occasional 40 minute gaps. Youd be faster walking from Phibsboro to the park



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭Citrus_8


    That's irrelevant, because:

    1. As already pointed, an actual frequency is less than that.

    2. As already pointed, a final destination to the passengers isn't just the Parnell, nor it necessarily is a city centre. People just happen to use the 46a to connect with other services (which they will have more options to do, going forward). N2 and the O will connect via Heuston, Broombridge, NCR, SCR, Connolly and more. I don't understand this fuss. People will need to change their travel habits, that's it. That's not that difficult. And a part of 46a is already covered by the Luas, while other parts will be covered by the alternative routes.

    The area closer to the Phoenix Park will be served in both directions rather than be the end of the route as before. So it will be 1 option less, but at least 3 options more: Heuston, NCR and Broombridge splits/directions.

    Post edited by Citrus_8 on


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,665 Mod ✭✭✭✭dfx-


    On board a 46a now. I did not foresee saying it is busy at an 8 minute frequency would create such a reaction. A longer frequency means it gets busier. People are not walking to the Phoenix Park or Prussia St or Berkeley Rd instead. To suggest they do or would is odd.

    The term 'covered' brings back bad memories of the NTA claiming the C3 covers part of the 79/A which showed a huge misunderstanding of the journeys taken. Nobody would take a C3 as 'cover'.

    People are also not changing their travel habits from the 13 and 123 which are still crammed to the G routes. They are unsurprisingly getting the route that gets them where they want to go from where they are. They are not walking round the corner for the G1 or G2.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭Citrus_8


    It is similar to a shoppers behaviour at the supermarkets: too many options on a shelf and they won't try something new or better. Remove the old-school option and they discover and are happy with the new options. People need to be encouraged to choose. Once they lose the 13 or 123, like a crowd of cute sheep, they will find a new alternative.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,869 ✭✭✭trellheim


    I'm a 46a regular into town from there and this breaks a huge amount of commutes. There is zero upside here for what is largely flatland and poorly served by other routes

    N2 doesnt go where people want to go and neither does the O. The O ? Squeeze onto a rammed LUAS at Heuston for the morning commute and then another bus - no thanks.

    The O in the other direction ? two stops and onto a rammed 39a the busiest route in the country and even when the spine launches nothing will change. Is it worth staying on the O - absolutely not at all - it goes nowhere people want to go . Its telling that there is no bus route at all or ever has been between the Big Tree all the way to Sheriff st


    No this is absolute idiocy of the highest order. and OP above is obviously not a regular.

    And that 8 min interval while sometimes longer and sometimes shorter is by and large on the ball



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭Citrus_8


    To be fair, you can't expect all Dublin areas to have a direct route to town. And, as stated already, the area will have more directions. 39a is irrelevant as it's a temporary route till a full BC is rolled out. Spine B and 37 will serve the demand. From the first 46a bus stop to Aughrim St are only 3 stops to bus 37. That's less than a kilometre (around 650 m) of walk so just 10 min! The fact that there are 3 stops within such a short distance is another problem, but it's another topic. You or anyone else usually walk much more in the city centre and don't complain. But suddenly when there's no direct taxi-bus from the door to town - it's a drama-problem... We walk in town, we will walk around residential areas too. That's good for a physical and mental health. And those who chose not to walk, will take N2 or O. So there's really no problem here.

    Tune down the drama - it will be grand.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,579 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Well frankly speaking, I am afraid that you have missed the boat on this. There were two massive consultations on the revised network, and you somehow missed them. That was the time to make the case for major changes - at this stage relatively minor tweaks are all that are going to happen.

    There has been a complete lack of orbital services around the city and this plan addresses that - that’s the main focus of the redesign. Just because a bus hasn’t continued along the NCR and Portland Row until now doesn’t mean that there isn’t demand for one. It just means that the bus company couldn’t be bothered in the past.

    The routes maybe don’t go where you are going, but that’s not to say that they don’t go where others are going.

    The O still serves the city centre at Connolly Station (and now offers a direct connection with the DART there) and will serve the Docklands and south CBD area as it continues around in a clockwise loop. For anyone going further south, they can change to the B and E Spines at Baggot Street or Leeson Street. I have experienced the loadings that you report on the 46a, and don’t disagree with your reports on it, but with the O now continuing in both directions that should disperse somewhat. Saying that it goes “nowhere people want to go” is clearly nonsense.

    Yes it’s a complete change, but with any network redesign people do generally adjust their travel patterns. People will need to start looking at connections between orbital and spine or radial routes at different intersections than they maybe thought of before.

    At the end of the day a network redesign is not going to please everybody, and some people are always going to be unhappy about the changes. Indeed I do have reservations about certain aspects of the changes, and for my own commute I will now require two buses (or one plus a reasonable walk), rather than one, which I am not particularly happy about.

    But at the end of the day they got a massive response from the public to the two consultations on this, made significant changes following the first consultation and further tweaked the changes after the second. I think that at this stage we need to accept that the design work is done.

    They need to now focus on resolving the driver shortage issues, and get on with rolling this out and then move into the next phase which is refining it and fixing the mistakes that inevitably will become apparent.

    For reference the reports on the two consultations are in the background info here: https://busconnects.ie/cities/dublin/new-dublin-area-bus-network/background-information-2/

    Post edited by LXFlyer on


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,665 Mod ✭✭✭✭dfx-


    You can't continuously depend on referencing a document from 2019 nearly four to five years on with hugely increased loadings and after a pandemic. It's out of date now in a changed service.

    There is a fair few "no changes were made to the redesign" in there. Holding a public consultation is different to acting on it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,579 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Well, I think that it is fair to say that you were never particularly happy with the project, be that in 2019 or now, particularly the removal of the 13, so let’s add that bit of context here. That doesn’t mean that the entire redesign is wrong.

    The final report was actually published in September 2020. That’s only 3 years ago.

    I still think that the basic premise of spines and far more orbital routes is the right way to go - especially the orbitals - they are very much a missing part of the network - I don’t think they are out of date at all.

    We can argue about some of the routings, and as I’ve said I’ve misgivings about some of them myself. But I have accepted that the NTA are proceeding with this rollout at this stage, once sufficient drivers are available. I don’t see any signs that they are going to suddenly change their minds.

    Most people don’t like changes in their routine, but people do adjust their behaviour over time.

    The frequencies can still change - we have seen a report here that the C Spine will see increased frequency shortly. That aspect isn’t entirely cast in stone.

    What the NTA do need to do is to be more responsive to getting the initial issues following the rollout of each phase fixed. They’ve taken far too long after each phase has been rolled out to adjust the running times to more realistic ones (be they too tight or too generous). They also need to be more open with the public about the changes and possible issues. The vow of silence they’ve adopted each time is not a good look.

    Post edited by LXFlyer on


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,264 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Really don't get your point here, in November 2022 they announced that bus usage in the Dublin area had recovered to 99% of what it was back in 2019. I don't think it's "hugely increased" if that's the case.

    Just can't see how it's out of date.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,267 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Spine B and 37 won't be enough to serve the demand on the Blanchardstown corridor.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭Citrus_8


    A frequency, not a number of routes, serve a demand. Number of routes create directions/options. And a frequency is easier to adjust then introduce additional routes. What you just said is irrelevant as it can be adjusted. C spine is a good example: more buses are in the routes, and planning to increase a frequency even more.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,287 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    B spine frequency is to be every 4 mins all day. Of course the theoretical frequency won't materialise without the construction of a proper bus corridor and a sufficient number of staff



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,267 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    If you have two buses a minute to meet demand, then you need to upgrade the mode.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭Citrus_8


    I agree, but that's off topic, soooo... you guessed it - irrelevant.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,579 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    How are you reaching that conclusion?

    By my calculations between routes 37, 38/a/b/d, 39/a/x and 70 there are 305 outbound departures each weekday and 321 inbound. This includes the overnight service on the 39a.

    Looking at the frequency charts, between routes B1, B2, B3, B4, 34, 35, 37, X61, X62, P63, P64 and P65 there will be around 500 outbound and 497 inbound departures, and that does NOT take into account any overnight service as that remains to be specified.

    During the key morning peak period between 06:00 and 09:00 there are 82 inbound departures currently from the respective termini of the routes listed above. The proposal would see that rise to 104.

    I'm finding it difficult to believe that won't be enough?

    Also, remember that some people will have been using the Navan Road routes to change to other routes to get to other areas in west Dublin - the W4 should now take those people off the Navan Road.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,287 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Agreed the GDA transport strategy recommends getting gigantic double decker buses due to the state's failure to build new rail capacity. Buses can't be the backbone of a metropolitan transport network. Unfortunately it's all we have. DART+ West will give the south blanch area a usable train service though, there'll be a lot of people ditching the 39a for DARTs.



  • Registered Users Posts: 79 ✭✭lateconnection


    They should bring back bendy buses to Dublin to solve some of the capacity issues with double deckers. A double decker can only fit around 90 people. Bendy buses can fit 140 and bi-articulated buses can fit even more. Obviously it requires some infrastructure changes and turning circles to be sufficient. However, on busier routes like the B Spine, Stillorgan Road and the A Spine to Terenure (3 min frequency- the most frequent in Dublin once Busconnects is done), they could really do with the extra capacity. For instance, on the A Spine, with double deckers every three minutes, it has a capacity of 1,800 per hour. With bendy buses carrying 140 per bus, it has a capacity of 2,800 per hour. I can't understand why they got rid of them from Dublin in the first place.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4 oliver_murray


    They would also be better for people with mobility issues! I can't see why we don't have bendy buses in place while we wait for more luas lines/extensions along the busy corridors (if they ever come)



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,726 ✭✭✭tnegun


    Loadings on the W61 have improved nicely since the reopening of the schools in Maynooth, prior there were still a handful of passengers boarding and alighting along the Moyglare road so word is getting out and people are getting used to the service. The college isn't back yet either so that should generate more demand for it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,765 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    The obvious solution was to design the corridors to accommodate articulated buses (and yes it was obvious even at the start of the BusConnects process). Maybe if some corridors get rejected by ABP there will be an opportunity to change approach. Bus orders could be an issue though if we are already on the hook for a huge number of double-deckers.

    Hopefully the driver shortage has made the NTA realise that each driver on the spines should be able to carry more passengers.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭Citrus_8


    Not sure about the rules in Ireland, but in other EU countries either a special driver licence code (DE?) or just an additional special internal training is required to get used to the angle of the articulated bus. Can't remember, which...

    The turning angle is different is there are cases when a pedestrian steps on a road while an articulated bus is in motion but around the end of making a turn. The end of the bus do sometimes drive over such inpatient pedestrians and a driver may not even see that due to the angle and drive away.

    Knowing a lack of the discipline and awareness of the pedestrians and basically no enforcement of crossing the red, these accidents are likely in the crowded junctions at the turns. Even though bendy buses do turn the rear wheels too to make a better angle, and these day can even get a turn middle axle, it still is a very different approach so drivers should have a proper training provided. But even so, many (but not all) routes won't be able to support having bendy buses because of the sharp turns and mini (or even some normal, just smaller) roundabouts. Depending on the length of the main body of the articulated bus, if it's longer from the front to the bendy part than the current double deckers, then they will need even more space on turns. They would get much slower on turns but much faster at the bus stops (more doors to leave). While it's a good idea, some bus stops in the suburbs are very small, just a grass and then one block of concrete. Aside of what's mentioned, this would need to be reviewed too. And I'm not sure about the NTA capabilities to do the job properly.



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