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Cork Area Commuter Rail (CACR)

15791011

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,966 ✭✭✭cantalach


    Because whereas ‘dart’ suggests speed, ‘cart’ suggests something slow, possibly pulled by a horse.



  • Posts: 0 Chana Big Ranch


    Why would it just reuse a brand designed for a different city? That defeats the purpose of a city brand. The whole point is to integrate it with the city it’s actually in and have something that identifies with the place it is. That’s how it’s done right across Europe.

    It needs to be slick looking and identifiable as being associated with Cork. There’s no reason why it would be Luas nor is there any reason why it would end in *ART which is just a Dublin rip off of a U.S. public transit brand anyway.

    Light rail in Cork would also go out tender so the trams may not necessarily even be Alstom. It could well be CAF, Bombardier, Siemens, Hyundai (Rotem) etc etc nor would the operator necessarily be the same company.

    They’re hardly going to be shifting trams from Cork to Dublin in a regular basis. It would be a supported locally and by the manufacturer at a base on the continent somewhere with major repairs being shipped out.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,330 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    A unified branding is important and isn't something that is in place on Dublin. There you have Luas, DART, Commuter Rail, Dublin Bus and various "Connect" services etc. all with their own logos, fonts, ticket branding. Dublin transport branding is a mess.

    Look at best in class branding e.g. Transport for London. While there's multiple services they're all unified through the roundel logo and overall branding.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,024 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Transport for Ireland is the unifying transport brand that the NTA are now rolling out across the entire country, and the new national single livery is being rolled out across the entire PSO bus fleet as they fall due for repainting, so it will take time for them all being repainted.

    Cork’s bus fleet will probably start to be repainted in it as the new BusConnects network starts to be rolled out.

    The operator’s logo is now only a small one on one side of the bus.

    Trains & trams have their sub-branding within the TFI branding and probably will still retain that. But I’d expect to see the TFI logo appearing across all modes as the NTA take a more centralised role in customer service.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,330 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Yeah it's a bit crap to be honest. Missing a trick by not having a Cork specific livery or something distinguishing about it. And you'll still have all the various "Connects" buses with their own branding, ticketing, route maps on top of all that. And Irish Rail then having their own livery, different fonts etc. And future Luas in Cork will have it's own livery etc like the Luas in Dublin. Slapping a tfi logo on something isn't going far enough in creating a strong brand.

    Use the train from East Cork regularly and there's no obvious tfi branding that I can see anyway.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,024 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    No, BusConnects is only the name for the project.

    It’s nothing to do with the actual branding on buses or other modes once the service starts. That branding is “Transport for Ireland”.

    The NTA are starting to roll out standard information formats, maps etc using the TFI brand, with one font and style.

    It will ultimately all be the same format but it’ll take time.

    For example, buses in Dublin are normally repainted every four years, so it’ll take that long to fully repaint the fleet, as they don’t want to be accused of wasting money!

    We are just starting the third year of repaints in Dublin.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,330 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    What? I'm talking about the Connects services like, Cobh Connect, Cork Connect, West Cork Connect etc. Some of them take Leap, others don't. Some of them appear on tfi maps of Cork buses, others don't. They use the term "Connect" and you got confused between them and BusConnects. A mess.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,636 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    Im in my 30’s and I’d be shocked if I see a North South light rail route in my lifetime. I wouldn’t be surprised to never see any light rail in Cork tbh



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,024 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    They are private unsubsidised commercial operators, nothing to do with PSO services.

    Of course they can brand their services as they see fit. That’s the same in any country.

    All PSO services will however have standard liveries and fares.

    But the NTA are rolling out standard bus stops with standard timetable presentation including those operated by commercial operators.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,330 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Only some of them are on the tfi map of Cork buses. For example Cobh Connect route 200 is on the map but their route 211 isn't. Neither is a PSO service. It makes no sense. IMO the tfi branding could be done much better and more locally specific, but people are free to think it's good.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,024 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    We don’t have up to date maps anywhere unfortunately, other than for rail & tram services.

    That’s something that needs addressing, but I suspect the NTA have put updating them on hold pending the implementation of the revised networks which involve substantial changes, both nationally and in towns & cities.

    The Cork map dates from 2021 and I suspect predates the launch of the 210 & 211!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,330 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    The new network is a long while off yet. It's very poor to have out of date maps - nearly 2 years at this stage. Stuff like this reflects very poorly and gives people who bash public transport ammunition.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Actually it's standard across Europe for unconnected public transport systems of different cities in the same country to have the same branding. All German speaking countries have U bahn and S bahn the logos vary between country, not city. Similarly in Spain except Catalonia, its the Cercanais and metro. In France its the RER and metro. Granted these are very large countries with multiple large cities. Consistent branding is important I think. The variation tends to be based on language rather than city.

    I'd prefer for the DART to change name to something else if it meant consistency with the Cork system, assuming that CART isn't a runner. Traen Áitiúil or TÁ might be an option, something that can be consistent across different cities, bearing in mind there may be a commuter rail system in Limerick in the future.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users Posts: 164 ✭✭Tippman24


    Why not call it similar to something a Dublin friend referred to the Luas as "The Snail on the Rail".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    We'll probably be paying climate fines for 50 years or so before any action is taken but still nice to imagine.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,173 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    It's good to hear that buses will have a uniform livery nationally. Will this just apply to city services or will long distance buses also be obliged to carry the TFI livery? This may annoy some people but I would favour abolishing the DART brand and replacing it with generic commuter or suburban (NIR used to have a Suburban branding and livery, distinct from the InterCity one, though this disappeared in the early 90s and it was all unified again). This commuter/suburban rail brand would then be common across the country. There is no need nor desire for locally named services/branding. It should all be uniform. TFI seems to be going in that direction so hopefully it continues. It's much better when the branding is instantly familiar to a user, nationwide. It will build ridership if people "know" the public transport everywhere, even if they don't. I agree that TfL is the class leader in all this. There is clearly a way to have distinct yet unified brands for the different services.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,603 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    I'd rather better ticketing, and decent bus stops designed to reduce dwell time ,than worrying about the name on the front of the train ..

    North south rail link ? Mallow to Cobh ? (Still needs a stop in blarney and black pool .. )

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,024 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    All PSO buses will eventually be in a common livery.

    Commercial operators (including Expressway) will retain their own branding and identities.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,330 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Got this in the letterbox. Ground investigations starting for the twin tracking to Midleton.





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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,569 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    I dislike the TFI green/yellow bus stops, I find them harder to spot than the old red ones. I don't know if they get lost in street clutter or they don't stand out in dull Irish weather. Bang of quango off the TFI brand.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,478 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,330 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Not sure it was mentioned here but the planning application for the extension of the platforms at Kent and to facilitate through running was granted in November. Here's a piece on it when the planning application was submitted last summer.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,119 ✭✭✭Paddico


    A right idea



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,478 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    IE to seek PP for stations at Blackpool and Blarney within the next 12 months

    https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1668990346460647428



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,478 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Looks like IE are getting into gear now with the public facing elements of this project, consultants to be appointed shortly to get planning for the works involved.

    This is looking reasonably likely to be in place for 2030, which by Irish standards is a huge win



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    The Blarney line could be called the 'Salonika' line. 'They takes us out to.......'😉



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,173 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Sorry if this was stated before, but will the Cork Regional Rail network be electrified with overhead catenary or with battery trains?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,885 ✭✭✭Economics101


    I know there has been lots of speculation about this. Electrification in the short to medium term would make no sense, as you would have a small stand-alone electrified segment at the end of the non-electrified Cork main line. When the latter is electrified (which it must be sooner (or later knowing Ireland) it will almost certainly be at 26Kv AC. So you would not have commonality with existing Dublin-area DART stock (1500V DC).

    Hybrid would make no sense, and purely battery operation would in my view have problems (no more 5-minute turn-around times). So I reckon it will be class 2900 DMUs to reinforce the existing 2600 in the short to medium term.

    This will cause some outrage, but electrification, which personally I regard as absolutely vital, will have to be rolled out as part of a national system-wide programme, and Cork suburban will have to fit into this.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,219 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    Current plan for Cork suburban is ultimately battery per the public plans, its a easy sell for the minister to suggest it. But the plan is for 25Kv for Hazelhatch - Cork so the DART+ fleet can't be sent to Cork really, no ETCS L1, GSM-R etc either

    29k all the way in Cork once DART+ starts to bite in Dublin but it could be into 2030 before any will be released. First stock to be released will be the 22K fleet to IC service.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,478 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Signalling contract awarded to Alston. €78.5m

    https://www.rte.ie/news/munster/2023/0818/1400463-irish-rail-cork/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,975 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    I thoroughly dislike Mr Ryan but this seems to be a project that he has kicked over the finishing line.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,330 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Only because it's being funded by the EU COVID Recovery and Resilience Facility which has a deadline on it. If this was a normal government funded project it would still be stuck at the drawing board. Even at that the bureaucracy in Ireland is doing its best to slow this down. The railway order for the dual tracking from Glounthaune to Midleton element is stuck in ABP since last November. It's such a relatively quick win but the red tape is extensive in Ireland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,785 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    ABP is the problem in all infrastructure projects here. They already had nothing like the resources they needed, and then they got landed with large housing developments too, which get far more objections than any road or rail project.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,269 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    At least there are signs.

    Most bus stops in Limerick City have no markings to indicate their existence.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,885 ✭✭✭Economics101


    ABP are not just innocent under-resourced victims; they have had their own governance and legal problems.

    Also they seem to have quite a number of cases whare the ABP Board over-rules their own inspectors. I'm not saying that this should never happen, but it should be rare. Are the inspectors not up to the job, of is the Board being irresponsible (or worse)?

    And of course resort to judicial review has also clogged things. There seems to be quite a success rate for judicial reviews of ABP. If ABP were doing a thorough professional job, then successful judicial reviews should be cpmparatively rare.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,785 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Can you elaborate on "governance and legal problems"? I'm not absolving them of all blame, but the fact is that various governments have loaded more and more work onto ABP without funding it to hire enough staff to deal with that extra workload.

    Going against the inspector's report is a normal part of how ABP works - it should not be universal but it should not be rare either. The inspector gathers evidence about a particular application, listens to submissions and makes a recommendation, but it is the Board that ultimately decides whether to approve an application. The inspector confines themself to one project, but the board considers that project in the context of other projects.

    Judicial reviews are a direct consequence of under-resourcing. JRs are objections based on process, not findings - you can only win on the basis of "ABP did not follow this legally-required process", and when you haven't got enough staff on hand to deal with the workload, there will be oversights and omissions, and that leaves the door open for JRs - JRs are usually pretty quick in terms of court time, but they get dragged out by an under-resourced Courts system. The length of time that it takes APB to handle a planning application also allows the legal framework to change during the evaluation process. Again, with adequate resourcing, the jobs would get done quick enough that this would hardly ever happen.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,330 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    The Cork line level crossing project to close/automate 7 level crossings and increase line speed between Buttevant and Limerick Junction, is sitting with ABP for over 2 years now. A quick win going nowhere. If we can't get low hanging fruit projects like that progressed, there's little chance any of the bigger stuff gets done.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,785 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Yes, it's maddening, and a big part of it is that "Minister approves funding for 100 more public servants" is seen as a negative, while "Minister approves funding for new rail project" is positive. Thing is, without the first, we can't get the second. Planning for big schemes should take 6-9 months - you won't get quicker given that people have a right to know what's being planned and to make observations - but there just aren't enough inspectors and general staff to deal with the number of schemes, so everything gets backlogged.

    There are changes to the planning process coming with new legislation that will cut down on the number of spurious objections and make it harder to bring JRs, but the planning system still needs to be properly resourced or the delays will continue.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,966 ✭✭✭cantalach


    So the signalling contract is independent of the dual-tracking contract and, in theory at least, could proceed without it. To a layperson like me, that seems very strange. I’d have thought that the new track and structural work would have to be done before signalling work. Does this suggest that awarding of the dual-tracking contract is imminent?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,785 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    It's sort-of independent. The signalling work will be for a dual-track railway, but in theory they could just tell it it to "close" the sections of track that don't actually exist yet, and route trains over the existing single-track way. However, the dual-tracking work is also out for tender as I understand it.

    Interestingly, the Strategic Rail Review document listed the Cork suburban network as a railway with "electrification already planned". The news report linked on previous page said that services would treble from the current one train per 15 minutes level, and I don't see how they're going to get to twelve trains per hour reliably without electrification... does anyone have any details?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,638 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    Could it be nothing more than they plan to use battery rolling stock ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,084 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    The new signalling will be digital, they can add more physical signals later and program in the new double-tracked section fairly easily.

    The plan is 10 minute frequency on each line which would be a train every 5 minutes west of Glountaune.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,250 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    From the RTE report, I have some questions.

    "New stations at Ballynoe and Water-Rock are planned between Carrigtwohill and Midleton, while Carrigtwohill West, Dunkettle, Tivoli, Monard, and Blarney/Stoneview stations are also expected to be delivered in 2026"

    Where is Ballynoe station? Is this Ballyrichard maybe?

    Where is Carrigtwohill West? Is this at the West of the IDA park? And how far West? Because works are underway in the area right now for a greenway and this would be a 5th or 6th standalone plan for transport infrastructure in the area with no masterplan: it's getting messy. Would be nice to see an overall plan.

    Also, no mention of Blackpool/Kilbarry seems incorrect?

    Also, Tivoli station being mentioned now is interesting: will this come before a published plan of the area I wonder?

    Blarney/Stoneview is hopefully a P&R with a link to the business park.

    And should they consider a station near North Link business park?



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,478 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Ballynoe is between Carrigaloe and Rushbrooke on the Cobh branch

    Carrigtwohill is planned to be in and around the IDA park

    Blackpool omission is surely an error

    Tivoli is in the to be redeveloped port area

    The big issue is that to my knowledge firm plans for these stations haven’t made and we’re working off indicative locations from the CMATS plan



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,330 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Under the plans for the dual tracking to Midleton this was the site potentially earmarked for the Carrigtwohill West station.

    To be honest I wouldn't be holding my breath that any of these stations will materialise anytime soon.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,636 ✭✭✭snotboogie



    So they plan to build a station in the middle of an empty field in Monard?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,250 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Yep I really don't see these being done by 2026 (as reported by RTE). Some of them I don't foresee at all. For instance the Tivoli one can't be delivered by 2026 surely, because nobody knows what the overall development masterplan is yet. It's an inaccurate report by RTE I think.

    Thanks Marno: I forgot about Ballynoe Cobh. That station makes very little sense to me if I'm honest, it looks like it would facilitate a single housing development. I wonder if this is some kind of Carrigaloe station relocation to the Ferry point or something? Or is it maybe a move of Rushbrooke? I don't understand it, as it stands. One of the biggest things needed on the Cobh section of the network is simple footpaths. The footpath from Cobh train to Cobh town is tiny. They need to make Westbourne Place outside the hotel one way Westbound and give space back to pedestrians. There's no footpath to/from Carrigaloe etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,250 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    This one is for a new town planned by the County Council. It will have no cars, just like Ballinglanna and Waterrock (I hope you can feel the sarcasm in my post!)


    Here's a nice post about Monard. Conceptually it's not terrible, but realistically each and every one of these people will be a commuter. There's almost nowhere local for them to work. It's Carrigaline or Ballincollig with a train station basically.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,785 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Ballynoe is probably a precursor to new housing development along the northern edge of ballynoe road, but even now there would be about 150 houses within a 10 minute walk of a station where the rail line crosses Ballynoe road. Footpaths/cycleways would still be a problem, though: Ballynoe road is really tight here.



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