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Russia - threadbanned users in OP

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,128 ✭✭✭thomil


    My understanding is that the Dutch number does not include the 19 Danish aircraft, which would bring the total force up to 61 aircraft. A quick back-of-the-envelope calculation based on a squadron size of 14 aircraft would mean that this package yields four squadrons, with five unallocated aircraft over for flight training etc.. Oryx is certainly listing them separately.

    EDIT: The bigger question for me is how many of these aircraft will be single seaters and how many will be double-seaters suitable for conversion training as well as fighting. Eventually, the Ukrainian Air Force will have to train its own pilots as well, so a number of double-seaters would undoubtedly be helpful in order to make the force sustainable in the long run.

    Good luck trying to figure me out. I haven't managed that myself yet!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 232 ✭✭IdHidden


    The US has over a 1000 of F16s in storage with nearly 3000 scattered all over friendly airforces around the world, mostly still in active service. It’s pretty much an endless supply. 

    https://www.f-16.net/aircraft-database/F-16/stored-aircraft/airforce/USAF/

     



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,053 ✭✭✭Polar101


    Shoigu getting fired is similar news to Belarus entering the war, Medvedev threatening the west with nuclear attacks, and Russia doing something suspicious at the Enerhodar nuclear plant.

    The security services' suggestion that Russia should really really start fighting the war is fantasy - they don't really have anything they can realistically escalate with.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,047 ✭✭✭jmreire


    If he hates Britain, then he should live in Putin's Russia for awhile.....!!!

    Post edited by jmreire on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,656 ✭✭✭Dubh Geannain


    Several Russian telegram channels have started reporting that Robotyne is under Ukrainian control. Hopefully hear confirmation in a few days from the Ukrainians themselves.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,503 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    I understand they won't be all delivered at once:

    Denmark’s prime minister, Mette Frederiksen, said her country would provide 19 jets – “hopefully” six around new year, eight more next year and the remaining five in 2025. “Please take this donation as a token of Denmark’s unwavering support for your country’s fight for freedom,” Frederiksen said.

    I'd basically say it was a case of both countries pledging to give Ukraine their F16's when they retire them. So as F35's arrive to replace F16's, Ukraine will be getting the F16's. Certainly better than leaving them to gather dust like Australia's F18's



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,660 ✭✭✭✭josip


    I would imagine that the Dutch will hand over theirs as soon as possible, even if they have to wait a number of months for them to be replaced by F-35s.

    MH17 hasn't been forgotten.

    image.png




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,128 ✭✭✭thomil


    That would indicate that the Dutch aircraft are going to be the first ones to be handed over, as the RNLAF already has 26 F-35As operational, in addition to the 8 F-35s based at Luke AFB in the US and used for pilot conversion training. There might be a few Danish F-16B double-seaters thrown in, as they likely won't be much use for pilot training anymore, given that Denmark has also started receiving its F-35As already.

    Good luck trying to figure me out. I haven't managed that myself yet!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,343 ✭✭✭RGARDINR


    The only thing I can see if they do go full mobilisation is make their economy go into full war footing. I mean have most of their industries go to war footing. Full 24 shifts making drones, artillery etc. Close their borders and have their men brought Into the military. I don't know if this will happen but it is probably 1 of the last roll of the dices for Russia. Full on war footing. Hopefully not but it's probably all they can do, I hope they don't but time will tell.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,597 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    All eyes on Kursk. Slava Ukraini.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,660 ✭✭✭✭josip


    In case anyone hasn't yet seen what Robotyne is like, this is it.

    image.png




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,047 ✭✭✭jmreire


    Well, in the beginning, it was the thought of what would happen ( public opposition ) if he went full on and made a full declaration of war, that he called it a " Special Military Operation ". So if he's prepared to go the full war footing, means that he has got nothing to lose. Last throw of the dice fo him



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,343 ✭✭✭RGARDINR


    That's what I think. He has to go full in now. Either that or give up on Ukraine. I suppose he is been told be those around him, here Ukraine are getting fighter planes now, next it will be bombers they will want, after that they will be asking for..... They could spin it and say Ukraine are been giving fighter planes by NATO and they will bomb Russian cities and say that to the Russian people. I just think it is getting to a point in the conflict for Russia that Ukraine will possibly get the upper hand and there will be no way back for Russia then. So like that if your going to possibly lose why wouldn't you go all in, the way it's going possible Russia will lose but if they got 100% on war footing and they concentrate their economy towards this then Putin/Russia might sadly have a chance and I expect it's getting to a point where this will happen. I think up until the end of September is crucial for Ukraine and then I say we will see then what way Russia will go, hopefully back across their borders but I highly doubt that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,353 ✭✭✭brickster69


    ..

    "if you get on the wrong train, get off at the nearest station, the longer it takes you to get off, the more expensive the return trip will be."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 604 ✭✭✭mike_cork


    Russia will have to mobilize for this war and turn the entire country to a war footing.

    Even if they did do this i don't how they are going to equip such a force.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,343 ✭✭✭RGARDINR


    Yeah I don't know how hard it is to turn your economy towards this and your industry as well in this day and age. I just think for Russia it's getting to that point either they do this or for their outlook they must be thinking that we could be fully kicked out of Ukraine and the only way to stop that from happening is to go 100% into this and declare it's a war and have our industry and people put on the war footing. In regards to equipping it I suppose if your industry is geared towards it it would be able to equip it, maybe not in regards to heavy tanks etc. Definitely you would think equipment for a soldier but saying that they seem not to be able to do that even now. One of the major lucky advantages Ukraine are having is Russia are not training the people they mobilise to a high standard or really any standard. I think if they had of been training say 250k troops for the guts of 6 months and had them fully trained and equipped the fight for Ukraine would of been a whole lot tougher but luckily that's not happening.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 604 ✭✭✭mike_cork


    Putin now finds himself in the situation of (A) Go home and give up the war (not going to happen) (B) Go full mobilsation but totally destroy what's left of his domestic reputation (Russian's will realize the war isn't going great). As well the Russian economy will go further to pot as everything is directed towards war or (C) Negotiate some form of agreement with Ukraine.

    Post edited by mike_cork on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,750 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    They would need the support of China or some other country with masses of equipment (Soviet type)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,949 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    These are all A's though block 1,5,10 and possibly 15. They are old (1980's). The platform is excellent but the onboard equipment is old. Not sure how much of a difference it will make. (Its certainly better than the mig-29's they are using though) but whether they'll be able to stand up to a modern(ish) Su-37 is an unknown

    I don't know if A/B F-16's can be upgraded.

    Can they carry the most modern weapons?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 53,477 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    Netherlands aren't playing any games with Russia since MH17.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,549 ✭✭✭Raoul Duke III


    Not being a military expert in any way, what is the primary combat purpose of F-16s in the hands of Ukrainian air forces?

    i.e. can they be used to destroy Russian ground targets in an offensive capability, or would they mainly be used for defensive operations



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,549 ✭✭✭Raoul Duke III


    China, especially with a domestic property crash ongoing (sounds familiar eh), knows which side their bread is buttered on. They wouldn't be so stupid as to end up in a sanctions war with the collective West.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,243 ✭✭✭Nate--IRL--


    I saw it reported elsewhere as Block 20's with MLU applied. I'd be surprised if anything under that spec was still active in NATO.

    Nate



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,949 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    Essentially the platform was designed for multi role use. This means the plane can carry air to air and air to ground munitions in the same sortie and switch easily between ground attack and air to air mode mid flight. Russian planes up until very recently cannot do this. They are kitted out for a mission, bombing or air to air while on the ground and cannot "really" change mid flight.

    In an ideal scenario these planes would be used as part of a combined arms type set up. Ground forces mark a target, planes blow it up (happens quickly) but in order to do that you need to take control of the sky, and given Russian SAM systems and the presence of Su-35/37's on the battle field it's unlikely they'll be able to fulfil this role. I would imagine American AWACs flying in Poland and Black Sea will however have a direct link to these planes which may make it possible to target things like the KA-52's which have been hampering the offensive significantly.

    That's all just speculation though. Time will tell.

    I would also be surprised, I'm sure they have had upgrades over the years, but with fighter planes, it's all about the most modern tech. They're the planes that win the battles.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,167 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    Read could take 4-5 years to get them properly operational in Ukraine.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,128 ✭✭✭thomil


    The Dutch & Danish F-16s are Block 20s that have received significant upgrades as part of their mid-life update and are functionally more akin to F-16 C/Ds. They may not have the latest and greatest radar systems, but they can carry pretty much every modern western weapons system, both in the air-to-air and air-to-ground role.

    Personally speaking, I think the biggest difference is going to be the massively increased situational awareness that the F-16 provides, both as a result of its design and as a result of the different operational philosophy. I've written about this before, but pretty much all soviet-era aircraft are designed around a strict command & control process where the pilots are effectively told to do one thing and one thing only, often under strict control from the ground. Things did change a little with the MiG-29, but even there, the pilot was still expected to generally follow the orders from ground control, and was given the sensors and systems to do one job, that is be vectored in to a target by ground control until the fighter would get weapons lock.

    Compare that to the western approach, which gives pilots much more leeway. Granted, pilots will still be expected to do their job and follow their mission plan, but nowadays, there is an expectation that a pilot in a fighter will be aware of the greater situation around them and thus be able to deal with emergent threats on their own, if able to do so. Granted, the F-16A Block 20 MLU's radar isn't on par with the type of hyper-advanced system that you find on the F-15s or F-35s of this world, but it will still allow the aircraft to engage in BVR engagements far beyond the capabilities of everything that the UkrAF has at the moment. Between that, and the data link capabilities of even early model F-16s, Ukrainian pilots flying these aircraft will have a much better understanding of the battlefield than ever before.

    Good luck trying to figure me out. I haven't managed that myself yet!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,552 ✭✭✭Virgil°



    Interesting if shes telling the truth. I wonder if they're just learning english/flight sim for the things or are they actually getting in the cockpit already?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,503 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    There was many reports that training had started months ago from multiple sources. It could have been as you say, learning English and flight & fighter basics in a classroom.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,128 ✭✭✭thomil


    Well, from my understanding, Ukraine already has a small cadre of pilots who've flown alongside USAF F-16s and F-15,s with some apparently even having had backseat experience in western fighters. Plus, Ukrainian fighter pilots already have flight and combat experience, so it's likely going to be more of a systems & tactics training course, rather than having to start from the basics. If pilot training really did start 70-90 days ago, that could mean that they've gone through ground school, possibly even some simulator time and might be ready to hit the real thing in a couple of weeks.

    Of course, courses will have to become longer as less experienced pilots are cycled through the program, but hopefully by that time, the first few sets of pilots will already have "graduated" and returned to squadron service, and will be able to provide informal or local training as well.

    Good luck trying to figure me out. I haven't managed that myself yet!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 604 ✭✭✭mike_cork


    Yeah saw the same reports.

    I'd be amazed if behind the scenes training hasn't been going for months,supply chains being readied, ground crews receiving training, ammunition/missiles being made ready.

    Even by their very presence on the battlefield these planes will act as a deterrent to russian attack helicopters.



This discussion has been closed.
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