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Criminal Justice (Incitement to Violence or Hatred and Hate Offences) Bill 2022 - Read OP

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  • Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    As I said earlier, I didn't think that was a serious threat to society and agreed with you that the law was adequate as is, but having ready several posters includding yourself over the last few pages, I've changed my mind.

    What did I say over the past number of pages that convinced you that this hate speech legislation is suddenly a good idea?

    Be specific.

    And as an aside, comparing Ireland in 2023 to Nazi Germany? Seriously!?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,240 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    How exactly would this legislation in particular help with lying and non-violent crimes exactly?

    You’re peddling this angle as though there are no laws currently in place to deal with such instances, when there are. You even had to go back to Nazi Germany to try have a position on this, if you go back far enough I’m sure you’ll find some sort of solace. This pertains to legislation today, not the 1940’s.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    You said "people have the right to tell lies" here:

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120975226/#Comment_120975226

    You've used this to intimidate and tell lies about the trans community indrectly in another thread, claiming you had concerns about education when you didn't.

    As to the Nazi comparison, Josef Gobbels also had the right to tell lies. Hitler had the right to tell lies. And they did. Then the moved into violence and harassment and intimidation. As I said, I didn't think the same thing was possible nowadays so I diagreed with the need for the law. Then you posted what I've linked to and I've changed my mind: people like you create the need for laws like this.


    See the first part of this post for answers.

    As I said above: before rapidash's posts, I would totally have agreed with you. Now, though...

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    You've used this to intimidate and tell lies about the trans community indrectly in another thread, claiming you had concerns about education when you didn't.

    First of all, I reject your mischaracterisation of my position; I have neither intimidated nor lied about anyone. But even allowing that, are you suggesting that if this legislation were to pass, I would have fallen foul of it?

    And just so everyone can see, here is what I said in its fullest context:

    Sorry, but people have the right to tell lies, even if we don't like them. Lies that damage the reputation of another are already on the statute books i.e. defamation, libel etc.

    A perfectly cogent and reasonable opinion. The best cure against harmful lies isn't legislation, it's facts and arguments.

    And your Nazi comparison is still embarrassingly absurd.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,240 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    So now that you don’t “agree” with me, you want the legislation implemented so people’s feelings aren’t hurt? You aren’t doing very well here.

    If you have to constantly reference the Nazis in 2023, again, you’re scraping a very empty barrel of any kind of argument here too.

    You've given very little evidence or a valid reason for this law at all. You’re loading it all with emotion because you don’t like what a poster is saying. The easiest solution for this is not new legislation, it’s using your right to listen or read and ignoring them. Simple as that.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    You can reject all you like, but you did do it. If it's not characteristic of how you feel, then that's your fault fro not articulting yourself propoerly. You were given countless oppertunities to clarify, you declined them all.

    Saying libel and slander should be legalised is kinda sbackups my point: why else would any sane person want it legalised? Unless you want anarchy, but that would suprise me.

    The Nazi comparison has been presented and backed up. You disagreeing with it or baselessly attacking it changes nothing: legalised lying of minorities was one of the first steps of the rise of Hitler: you can't honestly deny that.

    Not nessecarily. I'm saying that current law is NOT adequate and I've used the actions of posters like Rapidash to prove it. It's not about "feelings", it's about honesty. Never once did I write the word "feelings". Again: READ THE POST BEFORE REPLYING. It does not contain the word "feelings".

    Posters attacking me personally does not challenge my point. Changing my argument to suit themselves - as you've done twice in a row now - does nothing to challenge my point.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    More lies.

    Your newest claim about me:

    Saying libel and slander should be legalised is kinda sbackups my point: why else would any sane person want it legalised? Unless you want anarchy, but that would suprise me.

    What I actually said:

    Sorry, but people have the right to tell lies, even if we don't like them. Lies that damage the reputation of another are already on the statute books i.e. defamation, libel etc.

    How can anyone take your posts seriously when you deliberately misrepresent and lie about the positions of other posters?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,240 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    How is the current law not adequate then? If you’re going to use one posters posts (which, by the way, I am confused as to how that justifies your switch in stance), that’s a very poor level of argument to go from. Actions of a poster on boards is hardly solid evidence for the need for national legislation.

    Ive not seen any poster attack you personally either, but you may well be reading it that way, that would be on you though, not the posters.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Ah, my apologies,, I misread that part of your post. But I'd argue all lies about groups or people damage them to a certain extent.

    Rest of the post still stands though: you want the right to tell lies about people/groups you like and I disagree because it presetns a direct threat to scoiety, and high lighted the Nazis in the past and you in the present as evidence. That remains unchallenged.


    Poster said that people should have the right to tell lies about people and groups they personally don't like, I see this as immoral at best and dpwnright dangerous at worst.

    If this law forces him to be honest and not scaremonger, then I'm in favour of it. Intelligent people with genuine arguments and concrerns don't have to lie. I'm not saying the law is the best solution, but it's the better of two evils.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,240 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    Immoral, fine, but that’s not illegal. I don’t see how it could be seen as dangerous, if it was then it would be libel, and we have legislation for that.

    You say the poster wants the right to tell lies about people, and they should be. If there are adverse reactions or outcomes from that, there is existing legislation for that. So again, I can’t see your stance on this legislation having any real legs.

    Not liking what someone has to say shouldn’t warrant interference from a government. If you don’t like what they say, don’t listen.



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  • Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Your posts lose all credibility when you compare Ireland to the actions of Joseph Goebbels and Nazi Germany.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    More the consequences being dangerous. If I say knowling lie and tell someone that you're a pedophile, for example, and someone else goes and beats you up; are you going to see me as partly responsible?

    Again - it's not about not liking what someone has to say, it's about using the dangers of using lies to spread false information. I've been over this and I've given examples, not doing it a third time.

    And there you are again with the lies. No wonder you're against the law so much. Again, it's all you have.

    I didn;t compare Ireland with Goebbels - I compared YOU to Goebbels (although on reflection, comparing you to the German public would be more accurate: Goebbles knew exactly what he was doing). I've given reasons, but you can;t debate the reasons, can you? Yo can only make false accusations.

    Now, you want to debate the reasons with honesty, or are we done here?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    You're comparing me to a notorious Nazi at the same time that you allege I'm dishonest. That's ironic to say the least.

    What we can clearly see is that your only argument in favour of this legislation is that a poster on an online forum said things you either misinterpreted or disagree with -- and that's a ludicrous position at best.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Unwilling (or unable) to debate reasons, reasons for comparison remains unchallenged, we're done here.

    Post edited by Princess Consuela Bananahammock on

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,921 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    So none then?

    New legislation is enacted all the time, old legislation is amended and updated. This happens when it is seen there is an issue.

    Bullying isn't a crime.

    Harassment is currently being updated because it was found lacking, it is awaiting the minister to commence the act.

    The incitement to hatred act is basically unusable, as can be seen by the tiny amount of prosecutions brought under it.

    Any others?



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,921 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl




  • Site Banned Posts: 12,921 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    Nazi Germany didn't start out murdering innocent people.

    It first started to create a climate of hostility and indifference towards Jews and other people.

    It's not so difficult to see how these things can repeat themselves.

    Widespread propaganda currently being peddled by some people in this country should not be allowed to spread fear and violence.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,665 ✭✭✭Cordell


    The incitement to hatred act is basically unusable, as can be seen by the tiny amount of prosecutions brought under it.

    I would say that "only tiny amount of prosecutions" actually indicates it's a good law - the bar to prosecute people for words should be very high indeed.



  • Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Are you seriously suggesting that Ireland could head down the path of Nazi Germany?

    Which minority is being persecuted in this country today like the Jewish people were in Nazi Germany?

    I mean, this is laughable -- and it's the basis upon which you support the introduction of this legislation which makes it ten times worse.



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,921 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    Precisely the opposite, good laws should be enacted to be used.



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  • Site Banned Posts: 12,921 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    as in could we murder millions of innocent people? No, obviously not

    Which is why we enact legislation that protects minorities now. It's too late when it's considered acceptable to treat such minorities as second class citizens.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,841 ✭✭✭TomTomTim


    Yes, and this legislation will stop that apparently. Hitler and the boys wouldn't of had a hope if there was a German Helen around back in the 1930s.

    “The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”- ― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov




  • Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    What minorities?

    I'm gay and I don't seek protection with this legislation.

    In fact, I hate the legislation.



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,921 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    Wall done you. You won't need to use it then.

    the minorities as outlined in the legislation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,665 ✭✭✭Cordell


    You're totally wrong, he would actually have her in his government.



  • Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    You make it sound benign.

    Here is the reality of the legislation in practice, taking an example from the UK:

    Cathy Kirby had police officers contact her after trans activists claimed her posts on Twitter were 'transphobic'. Despite not being charged with any criminal offence, Ms Kirby was later told by Norfolk Police a 'non-crime hate incident' had been recorded against her.

    She said: 'I made a comment on Twitter calling out the new Pride flag, saying that I didn't particularly like the trans colours being added because I felt the original was fine as it already represented trans people.'

    Do you believe that the police should have investigated this case, and do you believe that Kirby was rightly reported to police?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,665 ✭✭✭Cordell


    Yes, it is used. It generates a very tiny number of prosecutions because proper "incitement to hatred" cases are incredibly rare.



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,921 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    That is in the UK.

    the police didn't investigate, they just recorded an incident against her, which was obviously overturned because they hadn't investigated. Not even police can go around making up lies about people!



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,921 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    Yes I do agree, but after 34 years of feedback from law enforcement, legal advocates and other agencies, it has been realised that this legislation is no longer up to the needs of today.

    Legislation is enacted and amended and updated regularly.



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  • Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    You're skirting around the issue again.

    Do you believe that the trans activists were right to report Kirby to the police on the basis of what she said?



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