BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

Daith · 04-07-2023 2:14pm

"Since people aren't happy about Parnell Square being a handover point when it's a stop before OCS, and since OCS is not feasible"

Why isn't OCS feasible? As was pointed out here, a handover should take what, minute or two? You could be spending that amount of time unloading and loading new passengers on at OCS anyway?

Or is the feasibility really about the bus driver not being there on time, at which point I def agree it will cause issues.

Edit: there's obviously bigger issues with the bus service and getting/retaining drivers, of course. I just think from a passenger perspective, it is really weird.

My bigger issue with OCS is actually the number of tourist buses outside the Gresham in the morning which can happily sit on the bus lane or pedestrian space (but that's another topic).

rx8 · 04-07-2023 3:32pm

As a driver on a cross city route, that has a hand-over point on Parnell Square, I can tell you this. There's an unwritten rule that you give the handing over driver 10 minutes as the bus normally arrives early and thus delaying passengers is avoided. What sometimes happens is that buses are late to hand-over and the breaking driver is entitled to have his/her full break. This has a knock on effect on future journeys and often results in journeys being lost. Lately, pressure from controllers has been making things worse and drivers are refusing overtime to come back early, thus losing journeys due to taking their full breaks.

O'Connell Street handovers are agreed by drivers either beforehand or on the radio during the duty for the convenience of not having to walk to Parnell Square, as if you continued to OCS and a driver wasn't there, then you're stuck with nowhere to go on your break. I know that there is rarely agreement between Route 16 drivers to do this as nobody wants to take the bus early and get hammered by the airport rush.

Daith · 04-07-2023 4:14pm

Right. So ultimately the break places are set and unlikely to change or have some alternatives.

And potentially bus drivers aren't available and bus drivers are stuck.

I don't think these are issues that can't be solved, but clearly they're way down on the list of priorities , if they even are considered an issue.

rx8 · 04-07-2023 5:31pm

Buses get delayed or don't run due to a number of reasons. Traffic, diversions, protest marches, parades. Drivers are legally required to have breaks after a certain amount of time behind the wheel. If that puts you over your hours then there's no option but to allow the driver go home and the duty only gets finished by someone on overtime at short notice. That's not always possible so the 2nd half of a duty won't operate and the bus will sit on Eden Quay or Parnell Square until the next driver is due to take over. Variables like this are few and far between but more staff would certainly help. They're still leaving on their droves after getting the licence and that's what the real problem is.

LXFlyer · 04-07-2023 5:43pm

There’s a third Oireachtas Transport Commitee meeting on the topic of driver shortages tomorrow at 13:30.

It will be interesting to see what the bus companies say - DB, BÉ, GAI and the CTTC representing private operators will be in attendance.

Its in Committee Room 2 and should be available to view here:

https://www.oireachtas.ie/public/_resources/themes/oireachtas/hourly/live.php?cr2&audio

Citrus_8 · 04-07-2023 5:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120805082#Comment_120805082

Is it available online (live or recording) like the first one was?

TranslatorPS · 04-07-2023 9:13pm

"Why isn't OCS feasible?"

As I said before, a handover point should be a location that can have buses left at in case of dropped duties (suddenly or otherwise).

For the record, this is all off the top of my head, but here's a list of all the handover locations that currently exist or should exist in Dublin's schedules - with the caveat that not all routes may be listed at any given location because memory:

Parnell Square (9, 11, 16, 38, 44, 122, 140, previously: cross-city 1, cross-city 40, Conyngham Road 13)
Parnell Street (120, 123)
O'Connell Street (previously: 747)
Eden Quay (Gs, 14, 15, 27, 27A, 61, 151)
Abbey Street (terminus for Hs, 6, 33, 41s, previously: 29A)
Talbot Street (terminus for 42, 43, 53, previously: 31s and 32)
Busaras (previously: 757)
Mountjoy Square (7s)
Aston Quay & Bachelor's Walk (26[+L53], 37, 39s, 70, Cs, previously: 25s, 79s)
Pearse Street & Bachelor's Walk (previously: 66s and 67s)
Hawkins Street (terminus for 65s, 68, 69, 150)
Pearse Street (terminus for 49 and 54A)
Luke Street (terminus for 47)
Clontarf garage (130)
Collins Avenue Extension at DCU (N4) – breaks actually taken in Harristown garage
Ringsend garage (C1, C2, terminus for C3, C4, 52, 56A, 77A)
Donnybrook garage (46A, 145, 155)
Harristown garage (terminus for 4, 13, 27B, 83s)
Beaumont Hospital (previously: 104[+220]) – this one didn't last too long
Blanchardstown s.c. (220[+104], 238, terminus for L52, 236s, 270)
Finglas village (terminus for N6)
Tallaght, The Square (terminus for W4 – reportedly)
Dundrum Luas (17s[+114], 175) – previously UCD
Dun Laoghaire station (111, terminus for 45A/B, 59, 63s, 75s)
Bray station (84s, terminus for 184, 185)
Bray, Castle Street (145 duties based in Bray)
Liffey Valley (L51, previously: 76[+18], 239) – L51 drivers take breaks in Ballymount garage
Skerries station (33 duties based in Skerries)

Routes not listed above most likely have their handovers by pulling into their garage (e.g. L54, L58, L59, 18, 33A, 33B, 76s+236s, 102). Some I genuinely have no idea about anymore.

DaBluBoi · 04-07-2023 11:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120805938#Comment_120805938

Correction: L51 serves Liffey Valley, not L52. Thanks for list tho

Daith · 05-07-2023 7:12am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120805938#Comment_120805938

So it's feasible if you knew a handover was going to take place and a driver was available.

It's Schrödinger's bus driver otherwise. Grand.

LXFlyer · 05-07-2023 1:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120805082#Comment_120805082

This is deferred to 14:30 - same link applies

lil5 · 05-07-2023 1:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120808424#Comment_120808424

Another delayed handover? ;)

p_haugh · 05-07-2023 2:10pm

What's the timeline for phase 5b again? I saw a Go-Ahead alx400 pass by me on training duties today, was on the N11 then went down Mount Merrion Avenue towards Blackrock. Most likely running the S6/17 routes.

stephenjmcd · 05-07-2023 3:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120808664#Comment_120808664

Could be just driver training in general, same bus was running out in Bray this morning

bk · 05-07-2023 3:17pm

“I saw Dublin Airport mentioned as a potential breaking location for the 16s – infrastructurally fine, but practically not so, as travel time from the garage to the starting location and from the finishing location to the garage is built into duties, so in order to account for the extra travel that would be taking place between Summerhill and Dublin Airport, duties would have to do less work, meaning more drivers would be needed to cover the exact same service levels”

Yes that is what I’m saying needs to happen, we need to get more drivers and adjust rosters and schedules to end the city center handovers.

Of course I’m not talking about the short term, I know there is a serious driver shortage that needs to be resolved first. But in the long term, say over the next 5 to 10 years of the bus connects project, we should be aiming to end this practise and yes higher the necessary drivers.

In the context of spending 2 Billion on BusConnects, it shouldn’t be a big deal (long term).

In the short term, handovers should just be done for the 16, etc. on OCS, as is done “unofficially” for other routes on the corridor.

rx8 · 05-07-2023 5:46pm

That's not going to happen. Duties are too long, breaks are too short. Drivers won't come back early for certain others that won't play ball. Only option is somewhere the bus can be parked, and that's not O'Connell Street.

Hotblack Desiato · 05-07-2023 11:13pm

If they're ever going to be able to hire more drivers than the current plans need it'd make a lot more sense to introduce new / extended hours services rather than use them to remove a slight inconvenience on a small number of existing services.

Daith · 06-07-2023 7:56am

Ah, we can look at both in order of priority of course

Investing in a new Bus Service that's going to be limited by historical break areas and communication issues around bus drivers, doesn't make much sense.

Ah we've spent loads of a bus corridor that will make trips quicker but we're going to stop on Parnell St for 5 mins because the other driver isn't available.

StreetLight · 06-07-2023 8:53am

Ah sure, we'll just expect drivers to keep on driving. It won't matter if they are breaking the law on exceeding driving time. Let them put their driving licence at risk. Let the bus company put their operator's licence at risk too, for wilfully creating rosters that break the law.

LXFlyer · 06-07-2023 9:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120811762#Comment_120811762

Can I ask, how often have you been left waiting on a bus due to no driver being available?

I commute five days a week on a cross-city bus route and quite honestly I can’t remember the last time that happened.

It is certainly my experience that the new drivers are generally already at the stop waiting to take the bus over, or appear after a minute, or where there is no driver available that the bus is correctly scrolled as only going to the handover point.

I have only experienced a bus arriving to the handover point where the driver hadn’t been aware of there being no new driver to take over a handful of times in all the years I’ve been travelling cross-city.

Quite honestly, I think that you’re making a mountain out of a molehill about this. I don’t think it happens anywhere near the frequency that your posts imply it does.

The far bigger problem the company has right now is the length of time it takes to hire new drivers, train them, and get them out on the road, and then to retain them.

p_haugh · 06-07-2023 9:44am

I've only had to switch to a different northbound 46a bound for Phoenix Park due to the driver not having a handover available once at UCD. Pretty much every other time, I've seen short working 46as go past with UCD or Donnybrook as the destination.

Daith · 06-07-2023 12:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120812003#Comment_120812003

I did say there are other priorities but I'm finding the pushback on a better service to be rather odd. We are investing a lot of money into BusConnects, and break areas and handovers and lack of communication, have to be part of this as much as anything else.

Quite honestly, the jump to "it's illegal" at this is the bigger leap.

The 40 for example is already a curtailed service now as it only goes to Earlsfort Terrace instead of Liffey Valley. That's what 8 stops after Parnell? And yet we're stuck with a handover at Parnell because that's how it always has been done. That happens a fair bit.

I got the G2 in the space of a few weeks and both times people boarded and were then told to get on the bus following them.

It makes no sense to customers and is a poor service. If you have different experience fine, but there's no reason it can't be improved at some point and the pushback here is ridiculous.

LXFlyer · 06-07-2023 1:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120812668#Comment_120812668

There are two different issues here:

1) Location of driver changeovers

First off, a bus being curtailed means that it is not making the full scheduled journey, but is being curtailed to/from a point along the route (usually the handover point).

The 40 is not “curtailed” - the route changed when the G Spine launched and it now has a new terminus at Earlsfort Terrace.

This is however only until the F Spine launches either later this year or early in 2024, after which buses will travel further southside.

That frankly is just one of those things - the Earlsfort Terrace terminus is a temporary measure due to the phased introduction of the revised network. There’s still nowhere else suitable for a driver change to happen on that route other than Parnell Square.

Changing that kind of thing would take significant time (as no other facilities are in place) and would need agreement with the unions beforehand.

There’s a balance to be struck and as I’ve said before people need to remember that many potential locations have been removed thanks to LUAS or cycle lanes being implemented.

2) Drivers not being aware that the next driver was not available to take over the bus until after they arrived at the handover point

I am more interested in the G2 incidents - are you saying that on both occasions the driver didn’t know that there was no driver taking over at Eden Quay until after they got there?

Daith · 06-07-2023 1:57pm

The 40, yes the route has been shortened until the F spine but it still retains the same changeover spot. If you're no longer driving the full 40 route to Liffey Valley, are bus drivers not saving time?

But it's Parnell St because it's always Parnell St and I think that historical baggage should be looked at

G2: Yes, in both cases people boarded at Eden Quay and then had to get off and then on the bus that was scheduled after it.

Look, I appreciate that are more pressing needs, that there is a lack of staff, that it's in the middle of bus route expansion, but it does cause inconvenience to passengers.

LXFlyer · 06-07-2023 3:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120813175#Comment_120813175

No, the drivers on the 40 are not “saving time” - there would have been totally new rosters drawn up to reflect the new route, which would have fewer drivers and which would optimise their working time.

I would have thought that it would be pretty obvious that driver and vehicle rosters change anytime a bus route changes?

There is an awful lot of work done every time a bus route or a timetable changes - completely new driver rosters, completely new vehicle rosters, and completely new stop-by-stop timetables all have to be prepared. Then they have to ensure that the driver rosters are in compliance with union agreements and EU driver legislation.

The driver change locations are set by agreement with the unions, and they aren’t going change unless there is agreement with said unions, and that would only be if alternative facilities are provided. Neither of those are on the radar as far as I know.

That sort of thing would be part of a multi-year pay & conditions agreement. It doesn’t happen on a whim.

By your previous post, a driver on the 40 should have to walk from Earlsfort Terrace to Earl Place and back every time they have a break. Great for his 10,000 steps, but a completely inefficient way to run a bus service.

Re the G2, I must say that I think you were just very unlucky if you’re saying that twice a driver and bus were waiting for a new driver without being told that there wasn’t one.

As a daily cross-city commuter, normally with driver changes en route, I genuinely cannot recall the last time something like that happened. That’s why I don’t think that particular concern is one that is a real issue right now.

Burt Renaults · 06-07-2023 9:09pm

Is there anything at all to be said for getting rid of the cross-city idea altogether, so that most routes (particularly the ones that don't pass a DB garage along their route) terminate in "An Lár" like they used to? It makes sense for driver changeovers to happen seamlessly at a terminus, at the end of the journey, rather than on the side of the road.

Citrus_8 · 06-07-2023 10:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120815448#Comment_120815448

That's how it should be. But Ireland is very behind with infrastructure and pretty much any kind of forward thinking planning. Ideally, the driver should finish a shift, leave a bus at the terminus for their pair, go to the nearby building dedicated to the drivers to use the loo and possibly, if it's a big terminus, jump in their own car parked at the terminus to go home, or take a PT. If a smaller terminus - catch a bus to the alternative place a car is parked at (shopping centre with an agreement for bus drivers to park or similar) or go straight home using a PT.

But no, we have bus terminus in the middle of the road where they turn around at the roundabout and rest in a bus lane of the road...

Ideally, terminus should look like Clongriffin at least (with a loo, resting room and a small canteen, and a free parking for staff, of course). Even Liffey Valley terminus isn't a good example as terminating buses for a longer break have to be driven further away rather than having a separate bay on the spot for that. But it's still much better than it was!

LXFlyer · 07-07-2023 9:51am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120815448#Comment_120815448

I can’t see them removing cross-city services - they’re a core element of BusConnects, very popular with passengers, and one of the definite positives that came out of Network Direct.

Add to that the ever decreasing numbers of potential layover locations in Dublin City centre. Dublin City Council has actively been trying to remove as many as possible.

jlang · 07-07-2023 3:58pm

The smooth handover bit yes, but busses laying over by the side of the road in the city centre is not a good idea. Maybe a large bus garage near Temple Bar ...

rx8 · 07-07-2023 4:46pm

Years and years ago, when @LXFlyer was but a glint in his dad's eye, and the roads around Fleet Street were covered in engine oil and diesel, CIE used to own all of the land in and around Temple Bar and a large bus station was shot down back then by the people in charge. It would have been a great idea now though...

(Apologies to@LXFlyer , no disrespect intended)

LXFlyer · 07-07-2023 7:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120819202#Comment_120819202

I was well and truly alive back then.... :-)

But I'll take the compliment LOL!

BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

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