Advertisement
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/.
https://www.boards.ie/group/1878-subscribers-forum

Private Group for paid up members of Boards.ie. Join the club.
Hi all, please see this major site announcement: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058427594/boards-ie-2026

Criminal Justice (Incitement to Violence or Hatred and Hate Offences) Bill 2022 - Read OP

Options
1…4849515354…154

Comments

  • Options
    #1502
    suvigirl
    Site Banned Posts: 12,921 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    The constitution often had to balance rights

    Anyone that is worried about this legislation should.be reading up on different cases taken as a result unconstitutionally. Very interesting.

    Rights are often pitted against each other in the courts, constitutional law is very interesting.

    Most of the posters here have never even looked at an act before it is enacted.



  • Options
    #1503
    TokenJogger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 102 ✭✭TokenJogger


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120765840#Comment_120765840

    Well that being a sweeping derogatory statement inciting hate (as interpreted by an AG) of views different to your's, it's off to mountjoy you go (in the future)

    Of course nobody wants that, people want debate and there's a good likelihood the previous post is very true even if some would take it as offensive

    *BUT* a truth hurting should not be policed, it's important that poor behavior is highlighted and challenged and that people are not afraid to challenge a sector of society that has prevalent problemsèèèèèèl0.



  • Options
    #1504
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,236 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120765970#Comment_120765970

    What? That post is inciting hate?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Options
    #1505
    Economics101
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,736 ✭✭✭Economics101


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120765714#Comment_120765714

    Sorry, it was the Sunday TImes, not the Irish Times, and behind a paywall. She says the following (directly copied from the paper) : ... It will provide in law for higher sentences whare hate is an aggrivating factor in a crime. For example if someone is convicted of assaultins a person on the basis of hatred for what we call protected characteristics, there will be a higher sentence"

    No explicit mention of white heterosexual males, but the implication is clear. it's a lesser penalty to injure me than someone else

    Post edited by Economics101 on


  • Options
    #1506
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,236 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120766268#Comment_120766268

    No. Its not about you. You could be imputed to be gay, beaten up for that and they could potentially be given an extra sentence. Nothing to do with you personally.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #1507
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120765733#Comment_120765733

    I thought those who wanted to discriminate would hate this bill? It makes discrimination harder - literally making it a hate crime...?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Options
    #1508
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,236 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120766330#Comment_120766330

    It's a deeply flawed logic twisting it all around to claim the targets of Hate crimes and people supporting hate crime legislation are the bigoted ones.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Options
    #1509
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,867 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120766330#Comment_120766330

    Hang on. Are you saying that if I hate this bill (which I do), I hate it because I want to discriminate against people? Really?



  • Options
    #1510
    Economics101
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,736 ✭✭✭Economics101


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120766299#Comment_120766299

    I know it's not about me personally: I was trying to make a general point.

    Does it really matter if I am imputed by someone to be gay? What really matters would be if I were beaten up, never mind the reason. In any event I can see the lawyers having a field day with a hypothetical case like this.



  • Options
    #1511
    Padraig Mor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,661 ✭✭✭Padraig Mor


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120766533#Comment_120766533

    That is exactly how these people think (and not just in relation to this matter). They see themselves as being progressive, kind people who are only trying to protect the vulnerable. Therefore, anyone who disagrees with them MUST be a hate filled bigot - there is no subtlety allowed on this point, they are good so if you disagree with them you are bad. And the views of hate filled bigots should not be aired - hence this legislation.



  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #1512
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,439 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120766562#Comment_120766562


    Ahh no I get the general point you’re making at least, but you refer to extra protection for protected groups, it’s how you took from that article that the penalty for attacking a white heterosexual male would be less than the penalty for attacking a member of a protected group… when there’s no evidence of Helen McEntee referring to protected groups or lesser penalties depending upon the characteristics of the victim.

    It does matter, because it’s an aggravating factor. You cited it yourself from the article -

    It will provide in law for higher sentences where hate is an aggravating factor in a crime. For example if someone is convicted of assaulting a person on the basis of hatred for what we call protected characteristics, there will be a higher sentence.

    Those protected characteristics are race, colour, nationality, religion, national or ethnic origin, descent, gender, sex characteristics, sexual orientation, and disability.

    This means if someone follows a gay man out of a LGBTQ+ bar and assaults him while shouting homophobic slurs, they will face a higher sentence than for a normal assault. Similarly, if someone damages the property of a person of a certain race while displaying hatred for that race, for example by writing a racist term in graffiti on a car while also smashing the vehicle’s windows, that too will be recorded as a hate crime and will lead to a higher sentence.

    https://archive.ph/fHy5S

    Same Sunday Times article, not behind a paywall 😉



  • Options
    #1513
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,439 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120766573#Comment_120766573


    That’s bullshìt though. PCB didn’t say anything like what BattleCorp took from it. The post refers to people who want to discriminate against other people, they will not like this bill as it’s an impediment to their freedom to perpetuate prejudice and discrimination.

    Someone who doesn’t like the bill for other reasons has nothing to do with the people who hate the bill because it places limitations on their behaviour that didn’t exist before.



  • Options
    #1514
    TomTomTim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,841 ✭✭✭TomTomTim


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120766573#Comment_120766573

    This logic is even used by the political class. Harris all but said that because Musk and Donald Jr opposed the legislation that, that means that it was good legislation. It's ridiculous logic that sadly has become normalized.

    “The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”- ― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov




  • Options
    #1515
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,439 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120766651#Comment_120766651


    How is that logic any different from your lamenting the fact that the legislation doesn’t get the derision you feel it deserves from our supposed legal scholars?



  • Options
    #1516
    TomTomTim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,841 ✭✭✭TomTomTim


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120766687#Comment_120766687

    Really? They are legally trained, and are quiet as can be about legally inept legislation. How is that one bit comparative to what I've said?

    “The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”- ― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov




  • Options
    #1517
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120766533#Comment_120766533

    Other.wsy round: if you want to discriminate, you'd hate the bill; not if you hate the bill. It's because you want to discrominate.

    Plenty of other reasons people (including me) have for not liking the bill.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Options
    #1518
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120766573#Comment_120766573


    See post above for clarification.

    So no, not 'these people" whoever you mean.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Options
    #1519
    Jack Daw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,007 ✭✭✭Jack Daw


    It doesn't matter if no-one is prosecuted under this new law in fact if anything I imagine the powers that be won't want anyone to be prosecuted under it as it will draw too much attention to it.

    All the politicians want is to create a chilling effect so people decide not to object to anything they put forward as people will say to themselves " I better not object too loudly to mass immigration as I might be contacted by the guards" the fear of that sort of inconvenience in life has a massive impact of people deciding to keep quite about something.Something like hate speech is impossible to define and that is exactly what they want because if it is difficult to define it is difficult for people to know whether they fall foul of it and potentially many things could be hate speech so it keeps people quiet for that reason also.

    This law is designed to create a complicit class of citizens who don't dare raise their voices to object to anything the government proposes.

    It's a disgusting piece of legislation and it's a massive indictment of politicians in Ireland who have clearly shown by their support for this legislation how un-intellectual they are and how much contempt they have for the people of Ireland.



  • Options
    #1520
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,439 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120766783#Comment_120766783


    It’s exactly the same logic as Harris suggesting that because Musk and Trump Jnr think it’s bad law, it must be good law.

    You’re using the same logic to say that because you think it’s bad law, legal scholars should be all over it, and it says something about the state of this country that they’re not.

    Can we call this the ‘no true legal scholar’ fallacy? 🤔



  • Options
    #1521
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,867 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120766687#Comment_120766687

    It is getting derision (or at least questioning regarding definitions etc.) from real legal scholars, not just 'supposed' legal scholars, i.e. former AG Michael McDowell.



  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #1522
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,439 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120767076#Comment_120767076


    Tom wasn’t referring to real legal scholars though, he was referring to the supposed legal scholars, y’know, the legal scholars who collected weetabix tokens or some shìt so they could claim in online discussion forums they were legally trained 😳

    I’ve often thought “there was money wasted 😒” when I see people making those kinds of claims, and then what they follow up with.



  • Options
    #1523
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,867 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120767100#Comment_120767100

    But I am referring to real legal scholars, or would you totally dismiss a former AG's concerns? I mean, he didn't get his qualification by collecting weetabix tokens or some sh1t.



  • Options
    #1524
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,439 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120767111#Comment_120767111


    Ohh I dismissed his ‘concerns’ ages ago, well, a few pages back in this thread really. His ‘concerns’ are the same petty bullshìt looking for definitions of this, that and the other, when he’s fully aware of what is meant by their use. He couldn’t help but be aware of it given like I acknowledged at the time, his experience in both politics and law already.

    EDIT: exactly what I said about McDowell:

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120741056#Comment_120741056




  • Options
    #1525
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,867 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120767138#Comment_120767138

    Are you a legal professional or have you studied law? Serious question, and I don't mean this as a personal attack, but if you aren't, how would you be any different from one of those weetabix token legal scholars?



  • Options
    #1526
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,439 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120767170#Comment_120767170


    Unlike the weetabix token legal scholars, I don’t imagine having a law degree means a license to bullshìt… well, not in the strictest sense anyway 😂



  • Options
    #1527
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,236 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120766562#Comment_120766562

    Well then don't claim it is about you personally which you did above.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Options
    #1528
    Economics101
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,736 ✭✭✭Economics101


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120767451#Comment_120767451

    I was not saying it was about me personally: I was using a hypothetical situation with someone like myself and a person of protected status as exemplars.

    Your interpretation of what I was saying is frankly quite childish. Over and Out.



  • Options
    #1529
    Marcos
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 741 ✭✭✭Marcos


    The senators from different parties are all saying that they are getting huge amounts of emails regarding this bill. If anyone wants to contact them ahead of the further discussion tomorrow then you may be interested in their email addresses below:

    Fianna Fail Senators

    Catherine Ardagh catherine.ardagh@oireachtas.ie

    Niall Blaney niall.blaney@oireachtas.ie

    Malcolm Byrne Malcolm.byrne@oireachtas.ie

    Pat Casey pat.casey@oireachtas.ie

    Shane Cassells shane.cassells@oireachtas.ie

    Lisa Chambers lisa.chambers@oireachtas.ie

    Lorraine Clifford Lee Lorraine.cliffordlee@oireachtas.ie

    Ollie Crowe ollie.crowe@oireachtas.ie

    Mark Daly mark.daly@oireachtas.ie

    Paul Daly paul.daly@oireachtas.ie

    Aidan. Davitt Adrian.davitt@oireachtas.ie

    Timmy Dooley timmy.dooley@oireachtas.ie

    Mary Fitzpatrick mary.fitzpatrick@oireachtas.ie

    Robbie Gallagher robbie.gallagher@oireachtas.ie

    Gerry Horkan Gerry.horkan@oireachtas.ie

    Erin McGreehan erin.mcgreehan@oireachtas.ie

    Eugene Murphy eugene.murphy@oireachtas.ie

    Denis O Donovan denis.odonovan@oireachtas.ie

    Fiona O’Loughlin Fiona.oloughlin@oireachtas.ie

    Ned O’Sullivan ned.osullivan@oireachtas.ie

    Diarmuid Wilson Diarmuid.wilson@oireachtas.ie

     

    Fine Gael

    Garret Ahearn garret.ahearn@oireachtas.ie

    Paddy Burke            paddy.burke@oireachtas.ie

    Jerry Buttimer jerry.butimer@oireachtas.ie

    Maria Byrne maria.byrne@oireachtas.ie

    Micheal Carrigy micheal.carrigy@oireachtas.ie

    Martin Conway martin.conway@oireachtas.ie

    John Cummins john.cummins@oireachtas.ie

    Emer Currie emer.currie@oireachtas.ie

    Regina Doherty regina.doherty@oireachtas.ie

    Aisling Dolan aisling.dolan@oireachtas.ie

    Sean Kyne sean.kyne@oireachtas.ie

    Tim Lombard tim.lombard@oireachtas.ie

    John McGahon john.mcgohan@oireachtas.ie

    Joe O’Reilly joe.oreilly@oireachtas.ie

    Mary Seery Kearney mary.seerykearney@oireachtas.ie

    Barry Ward barry.ward@oireachtas.ie

     

    Sinn Fein

    Lynn Boylan lynn.boylan@oireachtas.ie

    Paul Gavan paul.gavan@oireachtas.ie

    Fintan Warfield fintan.warfield@oireachtas.ie

    Niall O’Donghaile niall.odonnghaile@oireachtas.ie

     

    Independent

    Frances Black frances.black@oireachtas.ie

    Victor Boyhan victor.boyhan@oireachtas.ie

    Tom Clonan tom.clonan@oireachtas.ie

    Gerard P Craughwell Gerard.craughwell@oireachtas.ie

    Sharon Keogan Sharon.keogan@oireachtas.ie

    Michel McDowell Michael.mcdowell@oireachtas.ie

    Ronan Mullen ronan.mullen@oireachtas.ie

    David Norris David.norris@oireachtas.ie

    Lynn Ruane lynn.ruane@oireachtas.ie

     

    When most of us say "social justice" we mean equality under the law opposition to prejudice, discrimination and equal opportunities for all. When Social Justice Activists say "social justice" they mean an emphasis on group identity over the rights of the individual, a rejection of social liberalism, and the assumption that unequal outcomes are always evidence of structural inequalities.

    Andrew Doyle, The New Puritans.



  • Options
    #1530
    1800_Ladladlad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,528 ✭✭✭1800_Ladladlad


    Helen has now gone from the vast majority supporting the bill to some consultations were positive.

    "….they will make a fire with your beautiful oak door."



  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #1531
    TokTik
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,283 ✭✭✭TokTik


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120769146#Comment_120769146

    I see also Leo was the latest “rabbit in the headlights” politician when asked by Gript about how many genders there are other than male/female. His government has no official standing on it apparently.

    So no definition of hate, and no definition of who you might hate.



Advertisement
Advertisement