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Asked to return to the office, but caring for older parents at home

2

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,749 ✭✭✭Apiarist


    Woah, the whole of €354 a week caring for two people? Compared to the after tax weekly income of €1000+ in an IT job?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 912 ✭✭✭doc22


    I'm afraid there compromise is 2 out the 5 days they could request you in .The tablets, tea and getting out of bed can be done by home helps. But I do wonder the difference between your helping them with tea,bed,tablets and what the can't do i.e your implying they can't feed themselves? can't get out bed? can't walk? can't take basic medication. But the "99% of the time, they are grand on their own." implies they can get about,feed ,clothe themselves and get to toilet ? At which point the I can't work two days because I have to help the parents sounds rediculous



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 912 ✭✭✭doc22


    If I was getting a 1000 euro's after tax I wouldn't be questioning to my boss when I could come to office. Carers would be decided by the parents needing 24/7 care not "99% of the time, they are grand on their own."....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,746 ✭✭✭Deeec


    I get you want to WFH but in fairness most jobs would require to see you in person even a few times a year. There are very few jobs that are 100% WFM and where you never have to meet anyone face to face. So looking for another job isnt an option I think - you very well could find yourself in worse situation.

    OP do you not have some sort of help or support in caring for your parents? There is nothing you have mentioned here that would stop you from going to the office for a day or 2 - in fact it would probably do you good to get away from parents for some time. Tablets and cup of tea could still be done before you go to the office. Home help could help your mum get out of bed and dressed - you should have this support already, medical procedure at lunchtime again a carer or district nurse could call to do this. In the event of an emergency can you not call on a neighbour or someone in the event of something happening.

    Do you ever get free time to yourself - you really need to get support or your situation is not sustainable.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 945 ✭✭✭lotas


    they want 2 days... they asked to meet halfway. The halfway is... 2 days... not 1, which I would think is halfway, but the full 2... as for the caring, yea, they can get around, but it's leaving them for 10-12 hours a day on their own... an 8-year-old can get themselves out of bed, get around the house, feed themselves, etc, but would you leave an 8-year-old on their own all day?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 945 ✭✭✭lotas


    few times a year, I have no problem with it. i can arrange something for that. i could even try 1 or 2 days a month, but 2 times a week, every week, with no flexibility, that's my issue... they are claiming that it's flexible... but their compromise is I still need to come in...

    got my feelers out for a new job already... it's not worth all this crap at this stage...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,938 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    Their issue is that they wanted only one day a week and you wouldn't do it. Frankly that was foolish, you should have given them the bare minimum they asked for and avoided the escalation, because clearly it made them look at the situation and see what was really happening.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,525 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    If the mother needs help getting out of bed, then how does she toilet herself during the night? Either she doesn't, in which case there's a heap more caregiving work to be done, or the OP is also getting broken sleep, which isn't a sustainable arrangement for work.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,746 ✭✭✭Deeec


    No nobody would leave an 8 year old home alone - parents pay someone to look after their kids while they are at work. Parents cant use their kids as a reason why they can never to go the office - likewise you cannot use your parents as a reason why you never can go to the office.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,193 ✭✭✭screamer


    Ok gonna be blunt, your employer doesn’t pay you to mind your parents. I imagine that returning to the office is more of a case that getting people to return to the office needs to be fair and equitable, not making special accomodations for people. It’s amazing how the injustice is felt when rules don’t apply to everyone equally. Someone else will say hey I’ve to look after my kids, someone else might say I’ve no parents or kids but I need to take care of my pets. Where does it end? And ask yourself, if there was never any remote working what would you have put in place for your parents care? Anyways, as dev ops looking for a new job is no bother there’s lots out there, but increasingly employers are not fans of remote working anymore.



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  • Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Before I say anything, I am fully supportive of 100% WFH roles.

    Having said that, I think OP, that instead of trying to avoid going into the office, and looking for a new job, you need to look into putting some other options for the care of your parents in place on the days you have to go into the office.

    As they age, their needs are only going to increase. Best to start planning for that now.

    13 years in a job you like is a lot to throw away, and your current employers know you, which means they may be more open to flexibility around your parents increasing needs, if you need to switch days, or take a few hours for a hospital appointment.

    A new employer doesn't know you, and won't care about your responsibilities at home.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 912 ✭✭✭doc22


    But they don't have the mind of an 8 year old,unless both have dementia I’m unsure In what way you need to watch them. If anything happened(i.e a fall) why couldn’t they call an ambulance. 

    But even with the child analogy I can’t see any employer accepting a parent with an 8 year child saying I’m working home full time now to an employer regardless on the employers own policies. No one irreplaceable, and most people with caring responsibility accept this.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,975 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    They asked for one day initially but you didn't engage with that from your posts above. So you weren't willing to meet half way at the time. So complaining now that they wont meet you half way seems a bit strange.

    I know in my work from home agreement it states that i cannot use that to mind people. There has to be someone else there as a caregiver. 99.9% of the time that is to stop people childminding but i assume they cannot just say child as that is discrimatory.

    You have now admitted to your company that you are using company time to take care of your parents. You work from coffee shops during working time as you are running errands, and that you work weekends extending your working week.

    To be honest id say you need to leave. I would expect your company to get a lot stricter with you going forward.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 239 ✭✭BalboBiggins


    Mrs OBumble is almost certainly being facetious here. They like to come into every work thread and bootlick employers.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,624 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Your line manager should play a key role here. Have an open discussion, pointing out how good you are at your job, the futility of working in the office for your particular role and highlight the need for flexibility. You won't get full time WFH, as that would open up all kinds of questions for others in the organisation. You might get it down to 1 day a week initially, with possible improvements over time.

    Either you can live with that, or you need to start job hunting.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 458 ✭✭munsterfan2


    We have been hiring dev-ops wherever we can get them, Irelan, eu, brazil, all 100% remote.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,232 ✭✭✭TooTired123


    They can also work up to 18.5 hours per week and earn up to €350 net of PRSI pension contributions and keep all of the carers.

    Carers includes the €1850 x2 Carers Support Grant in June and Free Travel so it’s actually quite good.

    As the OP is living at home I assume that there is minimal rent if any at all.

    Their employer doesn’t have to accommodate them to the extent they appear to think they are entitled to be accommodated at all, and no, there’s nobody out there to put the employer “in their place”.

    They can try and make a complaint to the WRC though on which grounds I’m not sure, and the WRC may offer mediation but it’s not going to happen any time soon.





  • I know there’s likes of NordVPN and other encryption measures to help allay security worries when using a public Wi-Fi network, but I don’t imagine all employers are keen for employees to be doing any kind of sensitive work through such. Hackers have been known to create fake WI-FI, but I’m sure OP is very aware of this. Cybersecurity is a crucial aspect of any company’s operations.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,042 ✭✭✭✭fits


    Carers allowance is means tested. You might get carers benefit for up to two years per parent and that’s not means tested.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,339 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    For the posters who are saying time to get a new job. It maybe hard to get a job full time at home or full time at the very start



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,218 ✭✭✭mada999


    "Despite what they sell they know that in general remote working is worse for continuous improvement, innovation, knowledge transfer and mentoring."

    Imo, literally not sure how all of the above cannot be done remotely with screensharing and video calls. Sounds like poor management, poor training and team organization. Sounds like a dinosaur manager excuse imo.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,218 ✭✭✭mada999


    Shouldnt have a problem getting a new 100% remote dev ops job with most likely better pay from the job ads I see on a daily basis...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 481 ✭✭galwayguy85


    While I don’t want to be unsympathetic to the OP, the (general) sense of entitlement to ONLY work-from-home is putting those who have no other choice but to come on-site in a very, very difficult position.

    I work for the tech support desk of an IT wholesaler in Germany. For about two years it was a routine of one week onsite and the other week at home (so that one cohort of the those who chose to come to work never met the other). About 95% of the other employees deemed themselves to be ‘ at high risk of catching COVID’ and were mandated to stay at home, which is kinda understandable. My very first day was in the middle of March 2020, so I’ve never most who work there. I signed my contract before things exploded with respect to infection rates and so on...

    While all my (vaccinated etc) colleagues are now back in the office full time every week since nearly every restriction going has been lifted, the building itself is almost completely empty, weeds in one of the car parks, a canteen that never has more than 3 or 4 people for lunch, staff whinging about having to drive to the building to receive/return IT equipment once or twice in the year (despite knowing nothing else, pre-covid). I could go on…

    Our manager recently told us that the 30 year old building is going to be shut down (as it costs too much to heat, secure etc). We’re all going to be moved to another location so that we can carry out tasks that don’t always fit into somewhat ‘romantic’ image of the Cloud. Our new office could be in the same town, OR it might be in a distribution centre owned by company about 90 km from where I live..nobody knows for certain. Until now, work was a 10 minute cycle from my front door. This announcement is not ideal for a man who will soon be a father for the first time (I left it a little in my career 😀)!!

    The OP (and others who have convinced themselves that WFH is all that THEY can possibly manage) really has to embrace the ‘hybrid’ approach. If one can now easily ‘collaborate’ over a pint with mates at the weekend, they can easily do similar collaborations with those they were initially paid to work alongside with.

    Epically long/pointless ‘virtual’ video meetings and a work day that has no clear start, break times or finish to it etc are not going to always work to the advantage of the company and its employees in the long term.

    As others have pointed out, the OP's family situation is undeniably sad, but his employer cannot reasonably be expected to (in some form) pay for the time lost when he attending to his parents' medical needs and so on.

    Doctors, nurses, teachers and many others who went to college (included myself) have to just get on with life as it was pre-covid, others should bear the weight as well.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,486 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    The other thing is precedent.

    If the employer gives the OP what they want, then they have to do it for everyone.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,836 ✭✭✭dennyk


    "My job can't be done remotely, therefore everyone else should have to come into the office as well even if their jobs can be done remotely, because if I have to do it, then so should they..." is a fairly entitled attitude as well, to be fair. (And, incidentally, so is the idea I often see expressed that everyone else should have to come into the office just to provide company and social engagement for those extroverts who dislike working in a mostly empty building.)

    Consider this from another perspective; do you think it would be reasonable for folks working in, say, the building trade to demand that people with desk jobs give up their cushy indoor offices and work outside in the cold and the heat and the rain, because if the builders have to then it's only fair that everyone else should have to endure the elements along with them?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 481 ✭✭galwayguy85


    Take things a little out of context, be my guest. I was proposing a ‘hybrid’ model or the OP making at the least a comprise - read things again.

    So, let’s all look forward to streets of many buildings all falling into disrepair. On top of that the loneliness generation ever. Sounds good.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 912 ✭✭✭doc22


    When the employer was requesting a single day a week in the office management was expecting “Yes Sir” or even “can I please have some more time to arrange additional support for my parents when I’m away” . Certainly not “no” it’s a long commute.  As if everyone else is carefree regarding family responsibilities . It’s essentially ruining the graces that an employer gave (and you can be sure going forward no one else will be given similar ). I take it not showing up to work in office as requested is breach of contract and when HR is called they are working to either get the OP into line or get rid. 

    The fact that work can be done remotely is irrelevant, it’s the equivalent of saying during quiet times in office between projects that I’m not showing up as there’s nothing to do. 



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 481 ✭✭galwayguy85


    I agree that the OP has it hard. He is still expected to devote his hours on the clock to his work (remote or otherwise). “Can” and “must” are not the same modal verb, in the context of working from home

    His focus on his work cannot really go ‘up’ or remain the same when the health of his parents is going distinctly ‘down’, noble and all as he wants to be?

    Similarly, I was never paid to be hanging out the washing etc when I was compelled to stay in my home office. Yeah a dull but valid example.

    Working in IT, I’ve confronted enough employees for installing software that moves the cursor around the screen (giving others the illusion that they are ‘online’) and other little tricks.. Some are taking full advantage of the trust bestowed upon on them. No surprise that office workers (whatever they ‘can’ do or achieve in the home office) are being told that the party is ‘over’.

    Post edited by galwayguy85 on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 385 ✭✭iniscealtra


    Get a home help is my advice. You are doing two jobs - being a carer and working. That’s a lot. Now you have to be back in the office for two days.

    Otherwise go part-time and apply for the carers allowance.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 945 ✭✭✭lotas


    Thanks to all who replied to the comments. Some valid points were brought up. I have updated my linked in profile to indicate I am open to work and will be pushing back with my manager in the next few days. A couple of things to clarify (I have read most comments, but may have missed some)

    1: I am not "Caring" for them full-time. I work from either a bedroom or an office out the back garden, and they are inside watching tv or asleep 99% of the time. It's rare that I would need to "be there" but it's a comfort that I am close to them in the house IF needed.

    2: full-time care is not really an option... A carer does come up for an hour in the mornings and half an hour at night, but they have said they don't want anyone up full-time.



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