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Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,321 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    4 year olds believe in Santa, the easter Bunny and the tooth fairy...so they absolutely know what gender they should be. Makes sense.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Absurdum argument that was the same argument against acknowledging the existence of gay children, and promoting gay conversion therapy. They believe in Santa so they can't know they are gay, etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,321 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    Again with moving the goalposts. It is a very valid argument, how can a child of 4 possibly know what it is like to be the opposite sex? Just explain that part, if you can.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    I cannot. But my being no child psychologist doesn’t mean a) you are correct or b) that it should be banned by a knee jerk piece of legislative populism.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 171 ✭✭200mg


    Why would a child psychologist asses a child as trans. They know Pre pubescent children's brains are not developed enough to comprehend such things. It's not like an optician telling you your child need glasses. Even having gone through puberty teenagers brains are still not fully developed. They need to get to terms with a level of oestrogen or testosterone for a while. I would let a 14-17 year-old for example make a lot of choices but not life changing ones. I would not allow a 14 year-old to get a face tattoo for example. I would not allow if I found out a 14 year-old wanted to take heroin. A parents job is to set boundaries for the good of their children. I would not be a fan of a parent home schooling It's not a great idea see the burkes. I would not allow a 6 year-old to suggest they want to become pro at fortnight and not go to school. I would not allow a child under the age of 18 become an exotic dancer in an adult setting even fully clothed.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    I appreciate that’s your opinion but even the whistleblower for the Tavistock case is a “never say never.”

    for example what’s the youngest recorded puberty again, it was 2 years old.

    there are other reasons, besides gender dysphoria even, to what falls under the umbrella of provide gender affirming care



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    It shows up lots of people here as liars who claimed they don't want to exclude trans women from sport.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Cara Dixon wasn't competing in any category. You are now showing you just want to exclude trans people from sport altogether.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,422 ✭✭✭Backstreet Moyes


    Normal people - biological men should not be allowed compete in women sports, but can compete in sports of their sex.

    Trans Activists - You are showing that you want to exclude trans people from sports altogether.

    I am not sure if its a reading comprehension issue or something else.

    Most people value the health and safety of women and fairness in sport and object to men in women's sports.

    Activists value the feelings of a minority over the health and safety of women and fairness in sport.

    As I said thankfully a lot of people are waking up to ridiculous notion and women's sports is going back to how it should be.



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  • Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Not one person on this thread has argued for that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,027 ✭✭✭El Gato De Negocios


    Its the typical sleight of hand that we have seen on this thread. Make a preposterous claim based on nothing in an effort to prove imagined oppression.



  • Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    For sure.

    But they don't seem to have an ounce of sympathy for the "oppression" against female athletes. Instead, the latter are accused of causing the oppression against themselves. You couldn't make it up.

    The reality is that everyone has a biological sex - irrespective of whether one self-identifies as trans or not - and sport policy is dictated by this and this alone. There is no discrimination by definition. Everyone has access to participate in sport, and nobody is arguing for anyone to have that access revoked.

    Let's also reaffirm that many trans people agree that sport should segregated by sex and not self-identified gender. It's often portrayed as if it all goes one way, when that is clearly not the case.

    So the minority of a minority who argue that exceptions to the biological rule should be made - for them and them alone - are asking for special treatment, not equal treatment.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Like claiming some offense to women has happened because a woman won a “race”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    That the “oppression” is in air quotes is hilarious. Kind of gives away your faux concern.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,867 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    I think you'll find that 'most people' don't want to exclude transwomen from sport. They want them excluded from certain categories, i.e. female sports. And cards on the table, I'm one of those. I believe that transwomen shouldn't be allowed to take part in female sports. If they want to take place in male sports or have their own trans category, or in sports where there is no category, then fire away.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,841 ✭✭✭TomTomTim


    This thread? It's literally the go to tactic of the activist class on every thread about every issue.

    "I like bananas"

    "So you hate apples? Your nothing but a banana supremacist"

    “The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”- ― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,027 ✭✭✭El Gato De Negocios


    A woman didnt win a race, a transwoman won a race and people feel this is an issue due to the physical advantages most men have over most women. Now if your position is that a transwoman is actually a woman then there is little point in discussing anything with you because your entire belief is built on nothing but a social construct that disregards thousands of years of biology, science and common sense.



  • Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Over the last number of pages, you'd get the impression from your posts that somehow I and others are in some kind of extreme minority. The reality could not be further from the truth.

    When polled, a majority of Americans (69%) say that they are opposed to biological males competing in women's sport. More significantly, this percentage is higher in 2023 than it was in 2021 (when 62% were opposed). In other words, my view and others on this thread is the majority opinion - and it's on the ascendent.

    And this is nothing to do with left versus right. This is a question of right and wrong. If we take Democrats in the US, for example, there has been a 7-point shift against biological males competing in women's sport - from 41% in 2021 rising to 48% in 2023. Even among Democrats, then, the trend is clear.

    image_2023-06-14_134227324.png

    Several years ago when people may not have known much about this subject beyond slogans and so forth, you can understand why many people would initially have taken an agnostic approach. But with the passage of time, more and more people are coming to understand the real-world implications for women's sport.

    I suspect this trend will continue to grow the more cases that emerge of biological males dominating women's competitions; and particularly if this debate is framed from the kind of angle you've attempted to put across; the oppressor / oppressed narrative etc. Because you cannot persuade people of your position through language that alienates people's legitimate concerns on this question.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,368 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,321 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    You don't have to be a psychologist to know that a 4 year old child can't make that kind of decision. That is a developing brain for gods sake.

    You think it's "knee jerk" to banned or at least reviewed? You can't be serious here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    I don't know anything about the 4 year old or what their medical chart is. If they're intersex or experience a puberty starting at age 2, their 'informed consent' to puberty blockers might hardly be the issue. Nonetheless, that young person may experience all manner of difficulty later on in adolescence engaging in society, including in sports, especially if by condition of birth they present as the opposite gender.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,321 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    You are making some serious assumptions here, literally bending the world around you to not sound like some extremist that is ok with gender affirming procedures on a toddler.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    You are also making serious assumptions. My assumption is that there are a far more diverse set of cases out there than the rhetoric would have you believe. That it's not a 4 year old simply being thrust onto hormone blockers because they play with more Barbies than GI Joes.

    Gender affirming care can be as banal as referring to patient by their preferred pronouns.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,027 ✭✭✭El Gato De Negocios


    Attempts to erase half the population to appease a TINY minority of the population (who are hilariously, men) continues. Let's hope the slide can be redressed before it's too late.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    In the example above re Cara Dixon there was no category so why is she being mentioned at all in this thread?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    When all cycling results of the event are divided by sex, the trans athlete outperforms the female competitors to an enormous extent.

    The point wasn't to show that Cara Dixon was winning a women's competition but that, in her results category - which they provide a gender breakdown of - Dixon outperforms the other female participants i.e supporting the claim that biological males have a clear advantage against women.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,321 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    What rhetoric? I have zero care at all what someone wants to be referred to as, he, she, they, them, I really don't care. That is not what is or has been asserted in here by you. You were casually making the case that it is ok for a 4 year old to have the say over their body, at 4 years old...

    You were talking about the banning of knee jerk legislation, are you actively in favour of a child of 4 going through gender affirming procedures at that age? Straight forward question right there.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    You were talking about the banning of knee jerk legislation, are you actively in favour of a child of 4 going through gender affirming procedures at that age? Straight forward question right there.

    No that's not a fair question, it frames it in a demagogic way. Professionals in the field of psychology and medicine are free to set the ethical boundaries for children who have gender dysphoria, but it is not enough to set a 'straight forward' yes or no on whether 'gender affirmation' is allowed to happen at age 4 or not, period. That doesn't account for intersex healthcare or precocious puberty. In the 2-year olds case he got a hold, incidentally, of their father's 'male-testosterone gel,' but a law on banning gender affirming care for minors could see that child SOL of seeing a doctor to reverse or mitigate their condition.



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