Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

"None of that even touches on the lack of support for women’s sports, which needs far greater support than it gets already, regardless of however much support men’s sports receive. Excluding biological males who are transgender from women’s sports does nothing to increase the participation rate of women in sports, and there is no evidence that it decreases their participation in sports either."

As transgenders in sports is a recent phenomenon theres not going to be any evidence but logic says girls seeing biological men dominating their chosen sport are unlikely to be interested in participating. Its just a matter of fairness, biological males should compete against other biological males, no one is excluding them. I honestly can't understand why you are arguing otherwise.

Generally, those arguing for biological males in women's sport had no interest in sport up to this point.

They haven't participated in it. They don't watch it. They know nothing of it.

You couldn't honestly make these absurd arguments if you had a practical knowledge of competitive sport and, hence, the chasm between male and female capability in that realm.

Yet, they feel able to tell the majority, with great authority, that they are wrong and bigoted for defending categorisations which have been present and necessary since the inception of organised sport.

The self-regard is breathtaking.

As this thread is alive again...

I have to say that FINA / World Aquatic's inclusion policy document is a fantastic piece of work. It would make an excellent template for any Sports governing body navigating its way through the whole Sex/Gender categories minefield. The document is here. It's very relevant to Ireland since Swim Ireland organises its competitions under World Aquatic's rules as well as their own.

Early on they make the clear and obvious points that some here find so hard to grasp :

Historically, Aquatics sport has been separated into men’s and women’s competition categories. The separation reflects the sport’s commitment to: (1) ensuring equal opportunity for both male and female athletes to participate and succeed in the sport, including through the equal representation in its programs and competitions of athletes of both biological sexes; (2) ensuring competitive fairness and physical safety within its competition categories; and (3) developing the sport and promoting its popular appeal and commercial value. Because of the performance gap that emerges at puberty between biological males as a group and biological females as a group, separate sex competition is necessary for the attainment of these objectives. Without eligibility standards based on biological sex or sex-linked traits, we are very unlikely to see biological females in finals, on podiums, or in championship positions; and in sports and events involving collisions and projectiles, biological female athletes would be at greater risk of injury.

Their science group reported back that :

biological sex is a key determinant of athletic performance, with males outperforming females in sports (including Aquatics sports) that are primarily determined by neuromuscular, cardiovascular, and respiratory function, and anthropometrics including body and limb size. The extent of the male/female performance gap varies by sport and competition, but the gap universally emerges starting from the onset of puberty. The group reported that there are sex-linked biological differences in Aquatics, especially among elite athletes, that are largely the result of the substantially higher levels of testosterone to which males are exposed from puberty onwards. Prior to puberty, testosterone levels are similar in females and males. During puberty, however, testes-derived testosterone concentrations increase 20-fold in males, while testosterone concentrations remain low in females so that post-pubescent males have circulating testosterone concentrations at least 15 times higher than post-pubescent females (15-20 nmol/L in adult males versus c.1 nmol/L in typical females of any age). High testosterone levels generate not only anatomical divergence in the reproductive system but also measurably different body types/compositions between sexes. According to the Science Group, if gender-affirming male-to-female transition consistent with the medical standard of care is initiated after the onset of puberty, it will blunt some, but not all, of the effects of testosterone on body structure, muscle function, and other determinants of performance, but there will be persistent legacy effects that will give male-to-female transgender athletes (transgender women) a relative performance advantage over biological females. A biological female athlete cannot overcome that advantage through training or nutrition. Nor can they take additional testosterone to obtain the same advantage, because testosterone is a prohibited substance under the World Anti-Doping Code

That's pretty comprehensive findings that will be of no surprise to anyone with a real understanding of sports performance,

They don't shrink behind definitions either. There's none of the defining a woman as an "Adult human female" circular cop out here:

The word “female” means possession of XX chromosomes and (in the absence of medical intervention) ovaries and increased circulating oestrogen and progesterone starting at puberty. The word “male” means possession of XY chromosomes and (in the absence of medical intervention) testes and increased circulating testosterone starting at puberty.

It would be hard to argue with their policy objectives either, which are laid out as being:

to maintain the separation of Aquatic sports into men’s and women’s categories according to scientifically-grounded, sex-based criteria;

• to provide opportunities for transgender and 46 XY DSD athletes to compete in FINA competitions in the competition category that reflects their gender identity based on eligibility criteria that are consistent with and do not undermine FINA’s goals for the women’s category; and

• to provide a clear, fair, respectful, and confidential process by which athletes may establish their eligibility for FINA competitions.

They then set out the eligibility policy, starting with this:

Subject to the requirements set forth below, all Aquatics athletes are eligible to compete in the men’s category or in the women’s category in FINA competitions and to set FINA World Records in FINA competitions and other events recognised by FINA, whatever their legal gender, gender identity, or gender expression. No athlete is excluded from a FINA competition or from setting FINA World Records based on their legal gender, gender identity, or gender expression.

It's crystal clear. Nobody will be excluded from swimming on the basis of their gender (The obvious reason being that there are no gender categories, and gender plays no role in the eligibility criteria for competing in sex-based categories)

There is a comprehensive section on the eligibility criteria for both male and female sex categories, which includes this for the female sex category :

Male-to-female transgender athletes (transgender women) and athletes with 46 XY DSD whose legal gender and/or gender identity is female are eligible to compete in the women’s category in FINA competitions and to set FINA World Records in the women’s category in FINA competitions and in other events recognised by FINA if they can establish to FINA’s comfortable satisfaction that they have not experienced any part of male puberty beyond Tanner Stage 2 or before age 12, whichever is later

They go on to point out later, in their competitive opportunities section, that :

Within those categories, gender diversity is welcome. For example, female-to-male transgender athletes (transgender men) who are not using exogenous androgens remain eligible for, and are welcome to compete in, the women’s category; and male-to-female transgender athletes (transgender women) remain eligible for, and are welcome to compete in, the men’s category whether or not they are suppressing their endogenous androgens.

They are ensuring that everyone has an opportunity to compete in one of the sex-based categories, whatever their gender identity is. Nobody is being excluded from competition. The over-arching principle seems to be to ensure competitive fairness whilst being as inclusive as possible.

Hopefully this kind of ruleset will become the norm going forward.

They do shrink behind definitions, knowing full well that the FINA regulations are prohibitively restrictive for transgender people that would require them to have never gone through puberty, which is certainly possible, but entirely unethical, affirming the medicalisation model of gender, ensuring a catch 22 situation for anyone who is transgender who hopes to participate in sports competitions and does not wish to undergo unnecessary medical treatment.

It’s no different than people who pointed out homosexuals can get married already, leaving out the part where the whole purpose of marriage equality was because they were not permitted to marry a person of the same sex. Those making that argument thought they were fierce clever altogether.

The FINA refulations have been in operation now for almost a year. If they were "prohibitively restrictive" then they could be challenged in court on that basis. I'm not aware of anyone doing so.

Who are you to say that they are unethical? As well as an Athlete and Sceince group to assist in forumlating this policy they also had a legal group, as outlined in the document :

The Legal and Human Rights Group was comprised of legal experts in sex discrimination, human rights, and international sports law, including the jurisprudence of the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS). This group accepted the lawfulness of FINA’s mission, authority and responsibility, and FINA’s core commitment to equality of opportunity for both male and female athletes, all as summarised above. It was informed of the views of the Athlete Group and the scientific evidence produced by, and conclusions of, the Science Group. Thus, its task was to reflect FINA’s commitment to a sex-based women’s category as necessary to ensure that FINA does not discriminate against—and is able to empower—female athletes, and that Aquatics is able to promote male and female athletes and male and female sport equally. It is also understood that, as with any form of affirmative action, FINA’s effort not to discriminate against female athletes and thus to ensure a sex-based women’s category itself has exclusionary effects. In this instance, those effects are on male-to-female transgender athletes (transgender women) and athletes with 46 XY DSD whose gender identity is female. The Legal Group has tailored FINA’s eligibility rule narrowly, so that (a) it is neither under- nor over-inclusive, and (b) it includes provisions throughout that are designed to ensure that the requirements and restrictions for transgender women and 46 XY DSD athletes with a female gender identity to compete in the Page 4 of 24 women’s competition category are limited to what is necessary and proportionate to achieve FINA’s overarching objectives.

I'd trust an expert group on the specific subject a lot more than your opinion here.

You are factually wrong about FINA affirming a medicalisiation model of gender. They are very clear and explicit that gender identiy has no bearing on eligibility for either the male or the female sex category. Medicial criteria is only relevant for establishing eligibilty for sex based categories. Gender is explicitly irrelevant. (I'm presuming that you understand and accept that there is a difference between gender and sex)

Yet again you are clearly and demonstratively factually incorrect. Nobody is being excluded from participating in FINA's sports. They are being explicitly clear that there is a place for everyone to compete and set that out clearly and explicitly for transgender athletes. Everyone can compete. Nobody is being excluded from aquatic sports. So you do not need to worry about the ethics of excluding anyone from competing in aquatic sports, since nobody is being excluded on the basis of their gender identity. Everyone is eligible to compete in one of the 2 sex-based categories. Which category anyone is eligible to compete in is clearly outlined by the rules. But in no case is anyone excluded from both categories. Anyone who has gone through puberty is eligible to compete in the male sex category. They are clearly and explicitly not excluded from participating and competing in the sport, irrespective of their gender identity. This is literally laid out in black and white,

I don't know if you are having reading or comprehension difficulties here, but I've made it easy by quoting relevant extracts in posts above.

Can you reference the case where the FINA rules are being challenged in court in another country for me, as I have not heard about that, thanks.

If any athlete chooses to hide that they are transgender that is their decision. Their gender identity has no effect on their eligibility to participate in sex categories in sport, and the governing bodies (As shown in the case of FINA here) are clearly outlining their inclusiveness as policy.

I made no reference whatsoever to participation rates, I was simply pointing out the fact that you are clearly and demonstratively factually incorrect. Nobody is being excluded from participating in FINA's sports. They are being explicitly clear that there is a place for everyone to compete and set that out clearly and explicitly for transgender athletes. Everyone can compete.

FINA are being very explicit that all transgender athletes can compete in aquatic sports, and clearly outline which of the 2 sex categories they are eligible to compete in.

FINA is being very clear here. They do not have gender categories. They have sex categories. This is the point which YOU are so obviously and clearly unable to deal with, despite FINA laying it all out clearly and explicitly in their rules.

Do you understand the difference between gender and sex? Are you incapable of reading the FINA rules and seeing that they do NOT have gender categories? They DO have sex categories. Again, I ask are you having a comprehension problem with this, or can you just not accept the facts as literally laid out in black and white?

Transgender athletes are free to participate in which sex-based category they are eligible for. Their gender has no impact on their eligibility. They are not being excluded from a sex-based category on the basis of their gender. They can set records for that sex-based category. Their gender is not preventing them in any way from participating or setting records in the sex-based category in which they are eligible to compete in,

That is the logical conclusion of your argument, I'm just bringing you there faster. Putting lots of words in the way doesn't enhance or change the fundamentals of your argument in any way just as your previous arguments fell apart.

EXACTLY.!!!!!!

<IF> the categories were gender categories you would have a point, and I would agree with you.

But of course in reality FINA do not have gender categories. They have sex categories, as clearly outlined in their rules, with comprehensive explanations as to why that is the case, as supported by their science, and legal and human rights, groups.

If you want to deal with some fantasy world where FINA have gender categories rather than sex categories then you are free to do so, But that fantasy is unlikely to have any influence beyond your own imagination. I prefer to deal with reality, as outlined clearly and explicitly in FINA's rules. Maybe you can't deal with that reality. You tell me.

Go and read my short post again, it was very clear and thanked by 9 people.

I will note that you have been very poor at putting across your arguments where you accuse basically everyone on the thread of misrepresenting what you're saying, I believe this will remain the case until you can boil your position down to a 3 line paragraph that truly reflects your mindset, but suspect this is actually a tactic to deflect your real position (which would be taken apart quickly as I have done multiple times on this one thread).

What’s with maintaining this pretence that the rules can’t be changed, as if that’s an unshakable reality, when it’s evident that the rules can be changed, and have been changed, recently in fact. Can’t change sex or gender, but let’s not pretend the rules can’t be changed as though people who campaign for rules to be changed are the people who aren’t capable of dealing with reality.

I’m not sure you even know what a logical argument is in the first place, let alone how to arrive at a conclusion from one, but if it helps dial down your drama queen laden missives -

https://owl.purdue.edu/owl/general_writing/academic_writing/logic_in_argumentative_writing/using_logic.html#:~:text=Logical%20Vocabulary,-Before%20using%20logic&text=Conclusion%3A%20Logical%20result%20of%20the,and%20conclusions%2C%20devised%20by%20Aristotle.