Leinster V Stade Rochelais. Champions Cup Final. Sat May 20, 16:45. Aviva Stadium, Dublin.

cheese sandwich · 22-05-2023 09:38AM

Gerry Thornley having another go at Leinster fans in the Irish Times today. I think he’s completely wrong, the atmosphere was great on Saturday. Yes, Leinster don’t have any decent songs but that was not something that was going to be rectified before the final

cheese sandwich · 22-05-2023 09:39AM

Tim Robbins

May 22, 2023

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120625737#Comment_120625737
Those comments about character can really get people's backs up and will make him very unpopular in Leinster.
Looking back at the match, a massive difference was La Rochelle when they clear out rucks they can lie on players. That means, the defender is a fraction slower to form their D line. Meaning you have less defenders and your line speed is off. Yeah, it's rugby, it's dark arts - but those things have a much bigger impact than his chimera's.
Similarly, a few 50 - 50 calls went their way. Jimmy O'Brien competed for the ball got pinged. Dorris was deemed off his feet when for others it was legal turnover. A few LR mauls had truck and trailers. It's unusual to YC someone when the other team score. He pinged someone for professionally fouling VDF, other days they are yellows.
So, in all probability two match teams are going to have a close game. You could win twice or loose twice. That's sport.
O'Gara was terrible tackler in his day. He obviously knows the impact size can have. But he should have some respect for a club that produce 90% of their players before shouting on about character.
No French team other than Toulouse has maintain a long level of consistency. They come and go as the money does because they don't produce their own players.

Real lack of class from O’Gara after the match. Totally unwarranted but can’t say I’m wholly shocked

Tim Robbins · 22-05-2023 09:42AM

cuttingtimber22

May 22, 2023

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120626048#Comment_120626048
Leinster should bottle that for the next meeting. Maybe time that the bitterness is targeted at teams beyond Munster.

When Munster won the 2008 Heineken cup all refs were told pre season to be really strict on sealing off the next season. Cup rugby is all about winning tight matches. I have never seen a ref ping a player for lying on another after a ruck or a TJ flag it. There is no explicit law against it. But let it happen and we end up with American Football.

It was definitely, a good one to push and see what you can get away with. Two of the LR tries came from them doing it the rucks leading up to it. LR are really good at it because some of them are so big. For me after you rick someone you should have roll off them just like you do with a tackle as you preventing that other player play.

Now, in lower skill, lower intensity game it will make f - all difference. But, in a top level professional game it will make a huge one.

22-05-2023 09:42AM

Secondly - I have huge respect for Ronan O'Gara and what he's achieved, but he has behaved like a prized prick the last couple of days.

You won the game, why are you manufacturing this GAA-like faux outrage over invented issues?

This absolute bullshit about James Ryan not looking Aldritt in the eye, when there is clear, undeniable images of him looking him squarely in the eyes (and, fwiw, even if he wasn't, that's entirely his prerogative).

This stupid **** about not being given a room in the stadium or something, when (a) it's the ECPR who manage that and (b) they say LAR were offered a room in the stadium.

He's clearly a great coach, who his players love, and his ability to develop a winning gameplan is excellent, but I'd wish he'd cut this utter prickishness out of his character for his own good.

ShatterProof · 22-05-2023 09:49AM

Very tough to win finals when you finish up with 13 players on the pitch.

ionadnapóca · 22-05-2023 09:51AM

[Deleted User]

May 22, 2023

Secondly - I have huge respect for Ronan O'Gara and what he's achieved, but he has behaved like a prized prick the last couple of days.
You won the game, why are you manufacturing this GAA-like faux outrage over invented issues?
This absolute bullshit about James Ryan not looking Aldritt in the eye, when there is clear, undeniable images of him looking him squarely in the eyes (and, fwiw, even if he wasn't, that's entirely his prerogative).
This stupid **** about not being given a room in the stadium or something, when (a) it's the ECPR who manage that and (b) they say LAR were offered a room in the stadium.
He's clearly a great coach, who his players love, and his ability to develop a winning gameplan is excellent, but I'd wish he'd cut this utter prickishness out of his character for his own good.

Paranoia. It's what drove him as a player to excellence & also crippled him at times. Same for Sexton.

Its a trait well served in the coaching business.

ironingbored · 22-05-2023 10:05AM

cheese sandwich

May 22, 2023

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120626048#Comment_120626048
Real lack of class from O’Gara after the match. Totally unwarranted but can’t say I’m wholly shocked

Anyone else think the IRFU will not look too kindly on this in the context of a replacement for Faz.

Not to mention his two suspensions (16 weeks) this season.

Do they really want an Eddie Joneseque figure at the helm?

As well as how these comments and attitude will go down with the vast majority of the squad.

pickarooney · 22-05-2023 10:15AM

[Deleted User]

May 22, 2023

Incredibly frustrating loss, and no surprises at all to see this place literally full of seagulls and the usual spoofers in talking nonsense.
I don't know where the narrative exists that there was some sort of unmanageable power displayed by LAR that Leinster couldn't live with. Where are the actual examples of this from the match?
LAR scored one try in their "dominant" second half, and didn't really create another good opportunity for one.
The difference was solely down to Leinster, inexplicably, not being able to manage their exits properly (which, tbf, was illustrative of LAR's pressure game), and, very much connected, Peyper's refereeing decisions.
Why, in the second half, did Peyper decide he was no longer going to award jackalling players the penalty when they're on the ball?
Three clear examples in the second half - Dan Sheehan, Robbie Henshaw and Charlie Ngatai where they get on the ball, have to survive getting pummeled for it, and he just gives "turnover good", even though it's incredibly slow and scrappy ball. As a result - Leinster are usually out of position and scragging a kick into touch. If these three were rightly blown as the penalties they very obviously were, then Leinster kick to touch down in the LAR half and have the put in to the lineout.
That's a f*****ing enormous distinction. Leinster's defence actually dealt brilliantly in the second half with LAR's power, but the referee never gave them the penalties they were entitled to.
The decision not to give Caelan Doris the penalty on 67 mins and to actually give the penalty to LAR was the decision that swung the whole game. It's a **** disgraceful decision - he's on the ball for an eternity and more than long enough that the penalty should have been blown. From that penalty, they kick to the corner, score the try, and Kelleher gets the yellow.
The penalty against JOB in the LAR 22 when he simply contests for the high ball and Leinster win the ball was a terrible decision. That was a huge moment of territory and possession and was a bad decision.
The difference between how he refereed the sequence from 68-72 mins when LAR were on Leinster's try line to how he refereed the sequence from 73-78 mins when Leinster were on LARs was night and day. LAR got advantage constantly, every minor infringement blown immediately.
By contrast - you have Seuteni lying on the wrong side for an age and blocking JGP getting to the ball, you have Bourgarit clearly diving off his feet onto the ball at the ruck, you have the tackler holding onto Ngatai for an age after his long break preventing quick ball, after the Ringrose check back inside the sub-LAR hooker clearly swipes the ball back on the deck with his hand, and you have Skelton attempting to play the ball with his hands in the ruck on 78 mins. Multiple phases during this sequence you have the LAR outside backs very visibly offside which forces Leinster back in narrow.
Any one of these is an obvious and easy penalty.
This game wasn't about LAR's power, it was about Jaco Peyper deciding he wasn't going to referee the breakdown in the second half. That cost Leinster this game.

"I don't know where the narrative exists that there was some sort of unmanageable power displayed by LAR that Leinster couldn't live with. Where are the actual examples of this from the match?

LAR scored one try in their "dominant" second half, and didn't really create another good opportunity for one.

The difference was solely down to Leinster, inexplicably, not being able to manage their exits properly (which, tbf, was illustrative of LAR's pressure game), and, very much connected, Peyper's refereeing decisions."

I think you answer your own question here. LAR annihilated Leinster in the scrum, lineout, maul. They had possession for the entire second half and forced Leinster to make 2-3 times as many tackles as they did themselves. They were guilty of fluffing numerous chances just as Leinster were heroic in defence. It's not that suprising when, completely dominated as they were, Leinster repeatedly snatched at, and screwed up, the few chances they had with ball in hand.

22-05-2023 10:16AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120625913#Comment_120625913

Would you stop with this nonsense - it's fair enough to suggest they are lacking some leadership, but there is utterly no point in suggesting guys who were never, ever remotely at the level required like John Muldoon.

22-05-2023 10:20AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120626231#Comment_120626231

It's not the case though - they didn't really cause the Leinster line out too many issues. Leinster (once Ryan was lost) inexplicably opted to not to compete on any of their lineouts.

Scrum wasn't really that significant a factor - yeah they definitely had the edge but there wasn't that many of them, and Leinster managed to claw a few free kicks and penalties out of it too.

The maul without a doubt was dominant, but my point is they consistently got the opportunity for it because Peyper wasn't giving penalties for those jackal turnovers in the second half, and because of bad execution on Leinster's part with the exit kicks.

Outside of Seuteni's line break in midfield (which led to 3 LAR points), what other clear try scoring chances did they create in the second half?

They huffed and puffed a lot and went through phases (which I get are energy sapping for Leinster's defenders), but still ultimately just got territory through Leinster errors.

Essentially, what I'm trying to say was that the Leinster half backs lost the game, not the Leinster pack.

lawrencesummers · 22-05-2023 10:30AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120626107#Comment_120626107

With all due respect your looking at this through blue glasses.

Aalatola should not have gotten a red card, because he should have been in the bin from the scrum previous to when Kelleher got carded.

Ringrose was blatantly in at the side of a ruck that wasnt penalised.

GJP dived on a player on the ground, no penalty either

There is the penalty from the scrum that gave leinster 3 points, and everyone bar the ref agrees it should have been a LAR penalty as porter was sideways into the scrum.

Argue about jimmy o briens penalty if you want, but the breakdown previous was a clear as day penalty not given to LAR for poaching.

If you want to slate peyper (which ive no problem with cause i actually think he has issues with his sight) the slate him fairly because he missed a LOT by both teams, and left a lot go by both teams.

Leinsters problems were poor kicking, not taking a DG opportunity, and some poor calls on the sideline like taking off Conan instead of molony.

pickarooney · 22-05-2023 10:34AM

Leinster were terrified of the LAR maul and never contested so as to try and counter the inevitable attack with a full complement of defenders. They still gave up 10-15 metres or a penalty each time. Similarly at the scrum Leinster had big problems getting their own ball out and JGP was repeatedly scragged by his opposite number creating big pressure and forcing errors.

I'm not mentally ready to go back through the match and pick out all the missed chances in the second half but watching it live we were all amazed at how they had not managed to take the lead before 70 minutes and there was a crushing inevitability about the way they eventually did score.

The ref was grand, he let a lot of stuff go on both sides and I daresay if he'd pinged everything Leinster would have come off worse. The resultant high-speed game with the ball in play for long periods didn't help Leinster and hopefully this notion that La Rochelle are slow lumps who tire quickly is now definitively put to bed.

lawrencesummers · 22-05-2023 10:38AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120626048#Comment_120626048

LAR are producing their own players, they just are not doing it currently from a young age.

They are taking discarded internationals and good players from all over and making them world beaters.

An outhalf from PAU. A prop from breziers.

These arguments about money and budget's are almost as bad as complaining about the ref.

Leinster started with 13 or so players who are first choice on the best international rugby team going and they lost to a side that havent even a handfull of current starting internationals

Leinster had better players and home advantage and still lost.

The question you should be asking is this:

Why is it that one coach can take the group of players and win a grand slam and another coach cant win a league or cup with them???

cuttingtimber22 · 22-05-2023 10:39AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120626234#Comment_120626234

You lacked leaders, and clearly there is a lack of self-awareness as well as a touch of arrogance not to recognise short-comings while clearly dismissing the strengths of other players and teams.

La Rochelle are not a team full of current internationals (some were rejects from international teams), they were not a team with a massive chequebook, they played you at your home and won. What they are is a team which is well coached, well led, plays to their strengths and are now back to back champions.

Leinster had 11/12 of the starters of the number 1 rugby team in the world, were playing at home, had blown away Toulouse a few weeks previously, ran away with the normal phase of the league, had the world player of the year and a host of players on the six nations team of the year. What was missing was leadership, composure and common sense to go for a drop goal.

22-05-2023 10:39AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120626276#Comment_120626276

The incident you're accusing Porter of in the penalty Leinster got at the scrum was the exact same thing Joel Scalvi did in the scrum where you're claiming Ala'alatoa should have got a yellow - he clearly just goes directly sideways into the scrum. Did the exact same thing in the scrum earlier in the second half where Kerr-Barlow steals the ball on the deck.

When were the incidents with Ringrose and JGP?

It's an absolute fact that he should have rewarded Sheehan, Henshaw and Ngatai with penalties for their successful jackals, rather than just the scrappy possession Leinster got. In none of those cases was it a quick and easy turnover, it was scrappy, slow ball. Obvious penalty, and easy opportunity to clear the lines and retain possession.

The decision against Doris was an absolute disgrace - he's on the ball clearly for a solid 2 seconds before any LAR players get there. If that penalty is given, Leinster win the game.

You also cannot look at the refereeing of the final 5 mins on the LAR line and tell me that there wasn't a multitude of penalty offences committed by LAR down there where Peyper just looked the other way.

These are the moments where finals are won.

22-05-2023 10:43AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120626308#Comment_120626308

Yeah, all of which might be true, but there is no point in suggesting they just need "leaders" - they need players who are leaders but are also of sufficient quality to warrant a place in the squad. There's a 39-year old second row playing on my J1 team who is a good leader, doesn't mean he's any **** use to Leinster in a European Cup final.

None of the Irish teams are awash with leaders either. Leinster didn't have Sexton on Saturday, and lost James Ryan then. There's no endless pool of top tier leaders though, any team would struggle to weather that sort of loss.

ButtersSuki · 22-05-2023 10:47AM

This thread has been a very tough read.

From a club rugby perspective, I’m a Connacht support first, and a Leinster supporter second. The reasons for this is I spent my childhood between Galway and Dublin and have ties to both. Without over-romanticizing the past too much I’m old enough to have watched Jim Staples and Simon Geogheghan play for Connacht (not even in the sportsground, but in Corinthians Ground) as a teenager in front of less than 20 people, and Leinster lose to Cardiff in the inaugural Heineken Cup semi final in the old Lansdowne Road in front (from memory) of approx 5,000 (it might have been more but it was noticeably empty). First and foremost however I’m a rugby fan, and an Ireland supporter.

Reading this thread is embarrassing and it’s why I’ve stayed off the rugby thread for years. The bickering, the pettiness, the nastiness - from mostly you’d have to assume grown men, is actually disgraceful. I’m all for a bit of slagging but how any Irish person rugby fan could actively want another province to lose a major final (when the opposition isn’t their own team of course) is beyond me. I was in Twickenham when Munster lost to Northampton and in Cardiff when they lost to Leicester. I was cheering for Munster both days, not sitting there sneering and cheering for the opposition. Both times I was with friends from Munster who were obviously devasted, I wasn’t going to rub it in.

At the game on Saturday I saw grown men - and I’ll allow some leeway for alcohol - become triumphalist, expletive- laden, foul-mouthed ar$eholes basically growling at women and teenagers and children about how pathetic their team was and that they were “f-ing” losers, chokers, bottlers etc. - way beyond what you’d normally think is acceptable. The blue-red rivalry thing has become (in some quarters), poisonous. There isn’t a team on earth that could be coached by any former player or indeed be stacked with Irish players playing an Irish team that I’d root for in a game let alone a final. And then these same “supporters” will be cheering for Ireland shortly?

I’ve lots of thoughts on the game itself. In summation I’ll say Leinster weren’t mentally tough enough. To lose like that at home after last year’s late collapse is simply not acceptable. And I’d be very worried about the World Cup after that performance.

But what saddens me most about the whole weekend is the provincial bull💩 again raising its ugly head.

Ardillaun · 22-05-2023 11:07AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120626284#Comment_120626284

The difference in power was obvious. The Leinster forwards were going backwards for the whole second half and that made mistakes more likely from the backs too. After Ryan went off that was it.

TomsOnTheRoof · 22-05-2023 11:10AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120626309#Comment_120626309

Doris was unlucky to be penalised but it should have been a La Rochelle penalty regardless as Van der Flier was lying on the wrong side and interfered with the clearout, allowing Doris to get his hands on it in the first place.

Leinster got away with murder at the breakdown in the first half. They were coming in from the side repeatedly and supporting their weight with their hands. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if the trouble at half time resulted from the La Rochelle coaching staff trying to bring Leinster's action's at the breakdown to Peyper's attention because he rode Leinster in the second half.

Peyper is a poor enough ref and he missed a lot on Saturday. Furthermore, I'd argue that his cavalier attitude towards the ruck encouraged nonsense from both sides. However, he was in no way responsible for Leinster's loss. That comes down to the failure of the players to properly exit their half when under pressure (this was a constant issue in the second half) and the reluctance to go for a drop goal when they were sitting bang in the centre of the 22 with 2 or 3 minutes to go. Management also have to be held to account due to their use of the bench (McGrath and Frawley left twiddling their thumbs when the starting halfbacks were playing poorly) .

Finally, I don't know why people keep banging on about homegrown players. It's a club competition, teams are entitled to recruit. Leinster are fortunate to have probably the best foundations for player production in the world. That is as a result of excellent work being done behind the scenes and no small amount of luck due to the population base they have to draw from, as well as the numerous mini academies which feed into the province, i.e., the schools. This does not confer any kind of moral superiority on Leinster. It's impressive and a great model but it doesn't make them any more pure than their opponents. There were players playing for La Rochelle on Saturday who were playing for the club when it was knocking about the Pro D2 and that's equally worthy of recognition.

Lost Ormond · 22-05-2023 11:10AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120626125#Comment_120626125

No AR at this level would flag that. Leinster are excellent at doing similar around ruck time. you dont become one of the most successful sides in pro rugby over the course of a decade and a half without that side to your game.

Tim Robbins · 22-05-2023 11:11AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120626108#Comment_120626108

It can be a little cringe inducing. But it would be better if him and his newspaper looked for solutions. They could easily cover the Leinster youths and Towns cup more instead of their fascination with upper middle class southside Dublin.

Buer · 22-05-2023 11:17AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120626307#Comment_120626307

I think you're doing some of those signings a disservice. Hastoy was very highly regarded in France before signing for La Rochelle. He was in the French squad that went to Australia the previous year and was capped in Japan then. He was the T14 top scorer with Pau, I believe and is seen by many as the best goal kicker in France.

Don't get me wrong, they're incredibly shrewd in their signings and see the abilities of players and identify specific traits/abilities to suit their game plan. They signed Dillane to play flanker when he had played nearly every minute of his career at lock. They signed two established sub props of over 130kg, one a current Argentine international. When Saracens collapsed, they were on the phone to Skelton immediately to draft him in when people said he wouldn't be as good outside of Saracens. They're very canny with their signings.

But La Rochelle do sign players and big names too. They're not afraid to open the cheque book. Teddy Thomas has been a bench warmer for them this season. Jack Nowell is signed up for next season. They've signed Iribaren to be their back up scrum half. They have Ihaia West coming back in to now be their back up outhalf after he was their first choice guy for a few years.

Leinster blew it, undoubtedly. La Rochelle's greatest strength is their clarity of plan and coolness but a lot of the guys they have brought in are seasoned lads who have been there and done it.

I've seen a lot of people make the point about these players winning in green but not being able to win in blue. I'd suggest that this La Rochelle team is as good and better than anything Ireland faced in the 6N. And the England game showed to me that these same players are just as susceptible to pressure when playing in green.

Lost Ormond · 22-05-2023 11:20AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120626442#Comment_120626442

It isnt cringe inducing and Thornley has a point but its nothing to do with him or the IT to come up with solutions

Its off topic but the Times doesnt need to cover leinster youths competitions more now. Leinster rugby itself could and should be doing more coverage of them through their own distribution channels via website, social media first before any national papers cover them

22-05-2023 11:22AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120626435#Comment_120626435

Doris was unlucky to be penalised but it should have been a La Rochelle penalty regardless as Van der Flier was lying on the wrong side and interfered with the clearout, allowing Doris to get his hands on it in the first place.

No, that's not the case. Murray Kinsella has the gif of the incident in his article on it today - Doris is on the ball before any LAR player gets there. JVDF rolls out to the side of the ruck, not back into the scrum half or anything like that, and an arriving LAR player (their sub hooker) stumbles over him, but he wasn't in a position where he was going to hit Doris anyway, and the line he was on he would have been joining from the side.

By the time he stumbles over VDF, Doris had already been on the ball for a solid 2 seconds and should have had the penalty.

Leinster got away with murder at the breakdown in the first half. They were coming in from the side repeatedly and supporting their weight with their hands.

If you're going to make statements like this, then why not actually suggest a few examples of it, because it's not the case IMO, and wasn't a factor in any of Leinster's three tries.

Tim Robbins · 22-05-2023 11:23AM

Hmm.... Leinster do cover youths and towns cup more and have done a lot for youths the last 20 years. But, the Irish times doesn't.

Lost Ormond · 22-05-2023 11:34AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120626493#Comment_120626493

you are talking about media coverage. Leinster dont cover youths rugby etc on their website enough as they dont have the staff to do so. Get regional/local papers to cover youths rugby more. Get finals covered in national papers but Leinster need to work with clubs more to help them showcase the youths rugby more. same with other provinces. if clubs themselves arent covering their youths games. how can the provinces be expected to?

Its the same with all the national papers.

Tim Robbins · 22-05-2023 11:35AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120626533#Comment_120626533

They do. They gave some coverage to all the finals.

cuttingtimber22 · 22-05-2023 11:47AM

Interesting. Could have been a red card against LAR. Not sure if they would have stood.

https://twitter.com/patmccarry/status/1660575378832801792?s=46&t=Cs26Mut9CR7ynUwJtAVa_Q

22-05-2023 11:57AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120626582#Comment_120626582

Virtually identical incident to the one he did himself down the field about 7 minutes later.

lawrencesummers · 22-05-2023 11:59AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120626309#Comment_120626309

You have details and clarity coming out your ears about penalties leinster should have gotten but cant remember the obvious stuff that leinster got away with.

Leinster V Stade Rochelais. Champions Cup Final. Sat May 20, 16:45. Aviva Stadium, Dublin.

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