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N17 - Knock to Collooney [design & planning underway]

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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,406 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Yeah so the only viable non car option from Galway to Sligo will be N17 buses.

    Buses which currently have to meander through the death trap N17 that runs through Co. Sligo. Bizarre how the greenies forget that buses travel on roads too.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    If you think the road meanders, you should see that old rail line, spaghetti thrown at a wall



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,705 ✭✭✭serfboard


    They don't forget - they just don't care. The (mainly city-based) snobs that make up the Green party think that buses are for povs. The way to travel from A to B is by bike or by train. That's it. Public transport is steel wheels (train/tram) only.

    OK, obviously that's hyperbole on my part. But it's not too far from the mentality.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    All evidence to the contrary

    There's a whole lot more investment going into buses over the last few years, not to mention the LocalLink services being rolled out

    Rail is getting the short end of the stick by a long way at the moment, but thats a topic for another thread



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,345 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    The green bashing with next to zero evidence is a bit ridiculous at this stage, Ryan has been championing the rail report for ages now, including reopening rail lines with incredibly optimistic projections once again. If he could, he'd reopen all the old rail lines, but he's got to deal with the fact that there isn't an infinite supply of money and labour.

    Every road project also has an uphill battle at this stage, with every project needing to comply with our Climate Action Plan, a plan that was delivered because of commitments made without the Greens in government, and had the support of every party.

    I don't even vote green all that high at election time, but blaming the greens for nearly everything is just ridiculous.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 442 ✭✭BagofWeed


    I hope to god the people in Connacht remember this at the next elections. The Greens are just fanatics and are a disaster for less infrastructurally developed areas of Ireland. Only a rotten person would deny this development to the region.



  • Registered Users Posts: 313 ✭✭lotusm


    That road is a death trap...how many more lives will lost on this governments watch ... wants to turn the west in a nature reserve... can't wait to see the back of him and those green loonies... the North West the most underfund part of the whole country... how are we suppose to attract jobs without critical infrastructure not in place



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,406 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Whilst I realise that that is de facto Government policy, is it just a case of we should just formally acknowledge that the parts of Ireland with poor connections to the rest of the country will just have to put up with it from now on? The young people of these areas, who haven't already left the country, may as well head away themselves because any chance of their region having a better future is being sacrificed at the alter of carbon emissions reductions?

    This policy is going to have to be undone at some stage. One the one hand you have Eamon Ryan on the radio saying that we're going to power the whole country on renewable energy (read: zero emissions) and the whole country will be driving electric cars (read: zero emissions). So in that case, why would you cancel road upgrades in an attempt to reduce carbon emissions if the journeys made on them will be zero emissions?

    This N17 project has gone from being a 55km Atlantic Economic Corridor to a 40km four phase set of bypasses to being laden up with mothballs and put into the attic for a few years. Completely representative of the current Government also that has so much money it can't spend it quick enough but absolutely nothing to show for it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,021 ✭✭✭il gatto


    A look at the map of Irish motorways is telling. Nothing headed towards the north-west. People often cite population but Sligo, Leitrim and Donegal have a similar population to Waterford and Wexford and they have a motorway each. There’s an impression that nobody lives in the north-west. The population is actually nowhere near as sparse as some people think. Mayo: 137k Donegal: 166k Sligo: 70k Leitrim: 35k. Roscommon: 70k. That’s almost half a million people and one of the “national primary routes” serving it is a cart pass. The road from Collooney to Knock is a disgrace. People avoid making the journey if possible. Some of the most dangerous driving I’ve ever seen has been on that road with people frustrated and enraged at trying to get somewhere, taking stupid risks.

    The population of Sligo town has barely increased in the last half century. In the mid 1970s it was 16.5k. Today it’s 20k. A 25% increase. The EU has recently declared the north-west a “lagging region”. The first infrastructure project expected post that declaration then gets shelved indefinitely. The poor infrastructure in the region has been cited by several companies as a reason not to locate in the area over the years. There’s multiple third level institutions churning out graduates every year and there’s nowhere for them to work.

    One of the main drivers for the economic position the north-west found itself in was partition. Border areas were cut off from their natural hinterland and suffered economically. Both in the north and the south. It wasn’t a lack of people or a lack of hard work or a lack of gumption. And it’s quite clear that there is no plan to help the region catch up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,155 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    This thread is just going about three or four directions at once. Can someone just start a "the Greens are the cause of everything bad" thread? It'll be a lot easier.



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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,406 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    I’ll bow out for a while, and we can discuss how the fastest growing country in the European Union with an 11 digit budget surplus apparently has insufficient funding for a relatively unambitious roads programme.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,047 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    ...

    Is this road project being shelved not indicative of the preferences of the current Minister for Transport, also the green party leader?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,155 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    That's literally my question. I have no idea why the funding has been suspended. You guys may be right that the minister (and the party by extension) are the ones to blame here, but I don't see that confirmed as fact anywhere, and we've been through very many disproven "the greens ate my lunch" threads already at this point to the degree that I'm sceptical.

    I think the N17 scheme should go ahead by the way: it's in the NDP. I don't agree with stalling it. And I don't think rail is a viable solution on this corridor either. And we appear to have ample funding available. And I think we need to spend lots of that on infrastructure.

    It just feels like the "boy that cried wolf" to me, that's all.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,155 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Hey, I agree it looks wrong here Marno. 100%. If it's true that the minister is waving his hand to stall a project like this it's bad on many levels.

    But you know we've been here so many times on different threads now that I'm after getting sceptical.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,047 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Given its in the NDP and has been progressing well it is hard to reconcile why it would be canned like this other than ministerial interference.



  • Registered Users Posts: 846 ✭✭✭Westernview


    Have many road projects listed in the NDP been shelved? Seems a strange decision with all the talk the last few weeks of huge exchequer returns. As someone has mentioned the road from Cooloney to Charlestown badly needs upgrading so its difficult to understand the decision.

    Like Pascal O'Donoghue, Minister for Finance Michael McGrath is quite conservative and seems to favour putting the bulk of the large corporate returns away rather than spending it but that hardly extends to shelving already planned NDP projects?



  • Registered Users Posts: 846 ✭✭✭Westernview


    Exactly, the best performing economy and our infrastructure is still well behind the continent. Feels like a lack of ambition to me. Hard to believe that a motorway was initially considered for the western corridor.

    Like plenty of others here I have a lot of reservations regarding what Sinn Fein would achieve but decisions like this can only help their case for an opportunity to get into power.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Like plenty of others here I have a lot of reservations regarding what Sinn Fein would achieve but decisions like this can only help their case for an opportunity to get into power.

    Indeed, and they likely will be in power next time around, though that will be the moment when reality hits and their airy-fairy financial arithmetic and promise-everything-to-everyone populist silliness, will all come crashing down. There'll be very little they'll do differently and the closer they get to power the more you can see that with them adjusting previously held stances on many things to more align with the middle.

    As for climate related stuff, thats all locked into legislation that all parties voted for so you won't see much change happening there. Its also very likely that they'll pull the GP into govt regardless of how many seats they win, just to leave them in ER's ministerial seat as it'll suit them to let the GP take all the flak for the climate related policies while they can sit in the background wringing their hands in faux outrage



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,345 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Honestly, while I'd read the first article on it before responding above, I hadn't gone any further looking into it. I've since done that, and there's nothing confirmed to this story. Ryan said that there wouldn't be funding for years, but is he stopping the funds for design work? No one knows. Was he referring to the fact that construction start wasn't to be until into the 2030s? No one knows.

    I listened to the interview with the Councillor that chaired the meeting with Ryan, and she's no help either, she completely missed it in the meeting. She thinks that he was positive on so many other projects.

    Really just needs the department or Ryan himself to clarify what the situation is, because I'm just not sure all that much has changed. I'd guess people asked him if there was going to be progress on constructing the n17 project, and he inartfully (as he so often does) responded saying that there's no funding for the project, when he really means that there's no funding for construction, which is because we are years away from construction.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,155 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    That's pretty much my synopsis too. I've no idea whether Ryan or the Greens put the kybosh on this one. They might have, but it's not yet clear to me.

    Meanwhile we have good visibility of parties point-scoring by saying "the greens are out to get you". Absolutely not blaming people in this thread by the way, I just think the reporting is very poor in this area, repeating whatever politicians say.

    I'm reading so much about how the greens are ruining roads projects, farms, electricity prices etc. It'll be very interesting, like Brexit, to see who gets the blame if/when they're out of power. The whole politicial media schtick is really annoying, how they try and rile people up for a few votes.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,155 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    You might be right, it might actually suit some of the parties to shove Ryan into the forefront again: the perfect poop umbrella for controversial decisions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,867 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    If funding was given to MCC and SCC to progress certain sections of the N17, this could actually be a good thing. It would allow the possibility of some work actually getting done in the short to medium term, which was impossible with a 50km, €X00m project. A Charlestown bypass should be progressed on its own along with targeted online improvements which can be done under Part 8.

    Both the N52 in Westmeath and the N55 in Cavan have seen huge improvements over the last 10 years, we need more of this ongoing improvement approach which can actually result in getting something done. These huge projects are too unwieldy and require massive funding and take 10+ years with no physical works to show for it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,705 ✭✭✭serfboard


    Someone else pointed out that what's going on now, and maybe indeed even with this project, is that the whole scheme goes through all the planning stages at one time, but not necessarily all the construction stages at one time. This is better than each section having to go through all the planning stages separately - which in a lot of cases, would be very inefficient.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,021 ✭✭✭il gatto


    The section from Ballinacarrow to Curry is irredeemably terrible. It’s 30 years since the sections from Collooney to Ballinacarrow and Curry to Charlestown were completed. Nothing has been done since. It’s 25km of narrow single lane road with no hard shoulder and littered with dangerous junctions. The possibility of maybe doing bits and pieces at some point in the medium term is a pathetic place to be after so many years.

    If Eamon Ryan hasn’t put the kybosh on it, he should probably clarify his position. While the usual suspects will attack him, the source of people’s ire is a letter from the Chief Executive of Sligo Count Council to his counterpart in Mayo in which he said that Minister Ryan had said that ‘there would be no funding available for the scheme for many years’. So either he is being misrepresented or he did say that. Either way, people deserve a straight answer because passing off the criticism as politicking by SF and parish pump local councillors isn’t fair if he has, in fact, stymied the project for the foreseeable.

    If he has legitimate cause to halt the project, let them be known. And if it is purely his own personal preference and he can’t back that up with facts and figures, let that be known too. Something that people being led to believe was in the process of being fixed being suddenly knocked on the head deserves an answer.



  • Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭cartoncowboy


    Agree with all you said there. Local TDs have called for the same clarity in the Dail in recent days.

    Its the waste that really galls me. If Eamon had no intention of ever moving to construction on this road then why spend hundreds of thousands of our money on the prep work? That money could have been used for making smaller incremental improvements over time in that case. Instead we are left with a main road in a dangerous state, with an 80kmph speed limit (which says it all really) and land owners in permanent limbo. This is the second time in 3 decades that this road has been prepped and then suspended.

    I'm hearing at the meeting with local councillors, when the issue of the N15 upgrade was raised, Eamon dismissed it too and suggested by passes of all the villages along the route instead. (Another serious accident occurred on this road the other day). He also poured cold water on the Eastern Garvogue bridge and approach roads in Sligo town, which really annoyed people as its more or less shovel ready but has an objection in the courts currently. Although local TD Frank Feighan said yesterday that he had spoken to Eamon Ryan in relation to that scheme and got assurances that it will proceed as planned.

    All in all a controversial visit to Sligo by the minister for bypasses. It will be interesting to see what will happen in the current weeks with pressure being put on FF and FG to get the N17 progressed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,047 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Thats the thing - this section of road is bad not because of the towns and villages it runs through, but because the parts between towns are so godawful.

    Bypasses wouldnt fix a thing, would they even shave 2/3 minutes off journey times?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,826 ✭✭✭godskitchen


    Travel this route weekly, easily the worst section of N road in the country. It's 80kph for good reason. A cart track with road markings.

    The light at the end of the tunnel is that Ryan won't be in that job for much longer. No way this is not back on the table once he is gone.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,406 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    I had 2 days in mind that I would leave this thread for and hopefully we'd come to some sort of consensus. It appears we are at that stage now.

    There is only so much longer FF/FG TDs in marginal constituencies can take the heat trying to defend the policies and solo runs of Green Party ministers. SF (Carthy) are already out in Monaghan calling out the Government for the N2 and I feel the same will happen here. This project crosses too much of the country for it to be let pass.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,826 ✭✭✭godskitchen


    Just as a reference to the past and the Greens idea for this road. Imagine how well a single carriage way would have worked out on the N4 into sligo.

    Lorna Siggins

    Mon Jan 26 1998 - 00:00

    "Today Collooney, tomorrow the Curlew mountains. Thanks to EU funding, some of the most scenic parts of the Dublin-Sligo road will soon vanish as swathes of motorway chew up the north-west.

    This morning, Collooney village earns its "by-pass" badge as the Minister for the Environment, Mr Dempsey, opens 8.5 kilometres of dual carriageway, costing £30 million. Not everyone will be cheering, however. Though he isn't critical of the by-pass, the Green Party's Connacht-Ulster transport spokesman, Mr Wilhelm Bodewigs, believes there are better ways of spending EU structural funds.

    "Of course, Collooney and Ballisodare need traffic-calming measures," says Mr Bodewigs. "I am happy with the new by-pass but a single-lane carriageway would have done the job." He believes £10 million could have been saved, which could have been put to improving public transport links."




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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,155 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Consensus is one thing Marno, but do we have any clarity? It seems to be a complete vacuum of information still?

    If the minister isn't doing a solo run, then he certainly isn't doing anything to quell the impression that he's doing a solo run. I wouldn't be happy with schemes going ahead based on a ministerial whim, let alone schemes getting canned on a ministerial whim.



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