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M11/N11 - M50 (J4) to Coyne's Cross (J14) [options published]

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,047 ✭✭✭BraveDonut


    When the work southbound at Kilmac was completed to add the auxiliary lane and to prevent direct egress from the filling station, was the plan not to increase the speed limit from 60 Kmh? Surely this is till contributing massively to the traffic tailback to Cherrywood in the evenings?

    The N4 at the Foxhunter is a very similar setup and has an 80 limit albeit for 3 lanes



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,920 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    there was a speed limit review for the whole of Wicklow at the end of last year and it's proposed that southbound through Kilmac will go up to 100km/h (northbound remains 80km/h) - I think it's being implemented in June:

    (anything that isn't coloured is the default for that type of road).

    I doubt this is a significant contributor to the congestion further north though, it's mainly caused by 4 lanes of traffic (M50+M11) being funnelled into 2 lanes and then having multiple junctions very close together between J5 and J8.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,437 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    iirc they previously identified junction 7 as the main cause of the tailbacks rather than kilmac. I'm not sure the new design really helps joining, but the issue is normally the exit, and traffic slowing in the driving lane and/ or exit lane not long enough and/ or the killarney road roundabout.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,934 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Did they consider preventing the traffic from J7 merging with the mainline traffic and instead allow them join after the petrol station and roundabout in Kilmac? You'd still have to allow mainline traffic merge in left so it would have to be something 'soft' like a double line, solid on the inside, broken on the outside. Nothing but the law to prevent people abusing and joining I suppose.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,437 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    But I don't think they identified joining as the cause, more the exit. And there is also the traffic leaving the N11 for the business (now) off line, Kilmac - Roundwood - Laragh traffic. It would've needed a bigger rework to facilitate exiting for Kilmac and not allowing joiners from J7.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 21,464 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    Unfortunately, despite the current layout being there for some time, many people merging from J7 heading south still feel it's their life's mission to merge with the N11 as soon as humanely possible despite there being 750m of road to do it in, causing people on the mainline to have to slow or even brake to let them in without crashing into them. Pretty much the same thing is the case with the section between the M50/M11 merge and Bray North. Pure incompetence really.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,437 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    Again, just to say, I think it's those leaving the N11 at Junction 7 that are the cause when they've analysed it. That was the basis for the plans to get rid of the Killarney Road roundabout, so as to minimise the queue back to the N11. From what I see the joining and exiting between J7 and Kilmac doesn't seem that negatively impact. Albeit I accept the point about people wanting join asap - I just don't think it's the main cause (I'd have it more people exiting at J7 wanting to push in at the top of the queue blocking the driving lane a much bigger issue).



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,380 ✭✭✭prunudo


    Not sure how long it has been the case, if its official or a bit of opportunistic vandalism, but unless I'm mistaken, the 60kph sign is no longer on the mainline heading southbound.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,466 ✭✭✭vickers209


    I noticed that myself, but the 60k sign is still on the left hand side opposite the pole,


    I dont think the authoritys are enforcing it anyway

    hopefully will be corrected next month



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,211 ✭✭✭BigMoose


    I've been wondering the same. The 60 sign on the left is just after that lane splits and then there's immediately a 50 sign there too which doesn't apply to the mainline, so think they'd be hard pushed to argue that 60 applies. Although the pole is still there on the right so who knows if it was intentional.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,920 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    those signs for the auxiliary lane are confusing - in France they use arrows to indicate limits that only apply to one slip lane, we could do with that here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,977 ✭✭✭Plastik


    Interesting snippet of information in this Indo article https://www.independent.ie/regionals/wicklow/wicklow-district/kilmacanogue-residents-pet-peeve-of-illegal-n11-parking-raised/a1705291964.html

    "Separately, a response was given to the elected members from TII to Cllr O’Connor’s notice of motion from the previous meeting of Bray Municipal District, that “this Municipal District creates a cycle lane southbound to Kilmacanogue on the N11 to create a safer experience for cyclists”. The response from TII was: “Due to the constrained space in the verge and the high-speed nature of the carriageway, TII do not consider that a cycle lane can be safely provided on the N11 southound, between junction 7 and junction 8, Kilmacanogue.


    TII is currently supporting and providing funding to Wicklow County Council to progress the Kilmacanogue to the Southern Cross Greenway Project, this will provide a safe, offline pedestrian and cycle link between Bray south and Kilmacanogue, serving vulnerable road users in a safe and sustainable manor. Wicklow County Council is finalising the planning application for this scheme and hope to submit it before the Council for part 8 approval shortly.”

    Badly, badly needed along that section of road.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,920 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    that greenway has been in planning for a long time now, good news that it's about to go for approval but I'll believe it when I'm actually cycling on it.

    Similar issue for anyone wanting to walk or cycle from Newtown to Greystones - you have to use the N11. Could be fixed by CPO-ing a small strip of land from the Mount-Kennedy estate between Kilpedder and J12 for a shared path but no sign of anything being done there either.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,380 ✭✭✭prunudo


    Given the local uproar last year when there was talk of parallel link roads I've come to the conclusion we can't have anything nice no matter how much sense they make to the bigger picture.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,404 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    I presume this means that the scheme in planning is now off the table entirely, given that such a scheme would entail tearing up whatever's done as part of this "bus priority scheme".



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    What’s the thinking, turn the hard shoulder, such as it is, into a bus lane ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,380 ✭✭✭prunudo


    Will be good for mainline bus users but still won't fix the congestion. They had good plans to address the main causes and issues with linkroads and extra flyovers but instead bayed to facebook bs and minsters sticking their noses in.


    The facts are clear, there are too many local journeys taking place on the mainline, particularly between jn12-10 and jn8-7 northbound and jn5-jn8 southbound. These journeys are impacting on the flow of mainline traffic. A buslane won't help these people or reduce their journeys.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,437 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    I'm sure it'll be pinned on the Greens, but the objections to the off line plans/ closing junctions wasn't them.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,404 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    The pragmatic solution would be a mixture of bus lanes and measures to address the amount of access onto the mainline in order to reduce local traffic.

    But no. “Cars bad” takes precedence.

    I’ve heard this particular TD in Committee meetings and all I’ll say is there’s more to life and politics than carbon emissions.

    I strongly suspect that vote management by Sinn Fein and the FF/FG will eat his lunch next time round and we can have an adult discussion about holistic transport planning.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,920 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    they could close a lot of the minor junctions without a big over-arching scheme. I'm still not convinced it would make much difference to peak time congestion (particularly in the morning) but they should do it anyway. There are still 4 separate junctions NB for Kilpedder, 3 of them could be closed tomorrow and should have been closed when J11 opened. Quill Lane access could also be closed and the SB off-ramp at Drummin as there are currently 2 off-ramps leading onto the same road.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,380 ✭✭✭prunudo


    True, although by closing the kilpedder junctions you are cutting it off from public transport, but in reality since the median closures it has been cut off to southbound buses for close on 20 years.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,437 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    Thanks for proving my point - it wasn't the Greens that objected to that solution. It was local campaigns, supported by local and national politicians to retain all the direct access. I don't recall any of them being Green.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,920 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    actually that's a fair point, but you could close the 2 more northerly accesses (Willow Grove and Old Downs Rd) and the bus could go into Kilpedder at Jocks and back onto the N11 at J11. Even if you closed the Jocks access, the bus could come off at J11, turn around in Kilpedder (there's already a turning circle for buses there) and back out via J11.

    It also wouldn't be hugely complicated to put slip-lane bus stops on the northbound side where the closed accesses are, as you point out, you already have walk to the N11 on the southbound side.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,404 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    I should be clear - I'm not blaming the derailing of many of the scheme elements on the Greens.

    I'm blaming the Greens on effectively scrapping the scheme instead of proceeding with options to address some of the issues on the route where possible. These could be phased and funded over time.

    The Greens didn't object to the solution but they have effectively objected to any/every solution.

    I will butt out of this conversation because I'm not from the area and I haven't been following the ebbs and flows closely enough to be continuing. Perhaps a lesson that I shouldn't have butted in at all.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,380 ✭✭✭prunudo


    I think you're both essentially saying the same thing, the greens want bus lanes and no roads. Some locals didn't want the disruption associated with the benefits of mainline improvements.

    The people who got their way are the Greens.



  • Registered Users Posts: 374 ✭✭dublincc2


    Is there anything to be said for digging a tunnel under the Glen of the Downs? You see this all the time in countries like France where there are sporadic tunnels underneath forests and hillsides.

    With the tunnel underneath the present road through the Glen could be closed off and the surface ripped up with a view to rewinding the area by planting trees.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,380 ✭✭✭prunudo


    If a tbm finds it's way to Wicklow I'd prefer it found its home under Bray head.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,574 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Tunnelling was considered earlier in the project, but was eventually rejected on cost grounds.

    Details of new road tunnel at Glen of the Downs released – The Irish Times



  • Registered Users Posts: 374 ✭✭dublincc2


    I think the road should be moved entirely from the floor of the helm and rewilded with native trees.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,050 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Tunnel is by far the best solution and in Europe would have been done decades ago.

    Six lanes too.



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