The 2023 All Ireland Senior Football Championship (Sam Maguire Cup)

08-05-2023 11:39AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120569134#Comment_120569134

"so stop trying to shoehorn them into competitions and then bemoaning the fact that they are not making progress."

But that's my point. They WON'T make progress. Let's copy the hurling and give these counties their realistic chance at a day out in Croke Park. It's rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic at this stage. You said club football is alive and well in Carlow. Isn't it obvious what's happening? Those pondering inter-county football are saying I'm not putting months of hard graft in to be served up on the dinner plate of the elite counties.

dxhound2005 · 08-05-2023 11:40AM

There will probably be groups where teams will finish on equal points, and the tie-break rules will be invoked. Could be some hard luck stories, where third and fourth in a group are on equal points. This is from the Masters Fixtures List December 2022. I look forward to the conspiracy theories, no doubt mostly blaming referees for the outcomes.

Tie-Breakers – Group Stage In the event of teams finishing on equal points in the Groups, the tie shall be decided by the following means and in the order specified below;

(vi) Where two teams only are involved – the outcome of the meeting of the two teams in the group

(vii) Score difference – subtracting the total Scores against from the total Scores for;

(viii) Highest Total Score For;

(ix) Highest Total Goals For;

(x) A Play-Off.

In the event that two teams or more finish with equal points, but have been affected by a disqualification, loss of game on a proven objection, retirement or walk over, the tie shall be decided by the following means and in the order specified below:

(iv) Score Difference from the games in which only the teams involved, (teams tied on points), have played each other. (subtracting the total Scores Against from total Scores For)

(v) Highest Total Score For, in which only the teams involved, have played each other, and have finished equal in (iv)

(vi) A Play-Off

dxhound2005 · 08-05-2023 12:21PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120569349#Comment_120569349

They could have made it 101 things, to accommodate the various suggestions here. But they voted 95% in favour of this system.

howiya · 08-05-2023 12:40PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120569126#Comment_120569126

Cost of tickets

Cost of the day out in general

Both games foregone conclusions

Both games on TV

Each county has a minimum of three more games. Maybe supporters are picking and choosing which games to go. I know as a Dublin fan I can't go to every game especially the weekends on which there have been hurling and football games the same weekend.

Family commitments, communion season. Provincial finals usually held later in the summer.

Other sporting events/concerts sharing same weekend.

The list is endless

08-05-2023 01:18PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120569423#Comment_120569423

How much will they actually earn though? Only roughly 12,000 at each of the 2 provincial finals yesterday. People aren't fools. If the crowds are low at these robin robin games let them look at the whole thing again.

YabaDabaDooley · 08-05-2023 01:21PM

There was no doubt of either result yesterday. I wasn't exlecting big crowds at either game. You only have to look at last Sunday's paltry 30,000 at Croke Park for Leinster double header. Not so long ago Dublin v Kildare would nearly sell out on its own. I don't think the Leinster football final next weekend will be breaking any records either. Take real competition and jeopardy out of a game and many will choose to stay at home and watch on tv. Not many want to fork out money for a turkey shoot against much weaker opposition.

StupidLikeAFox · 08-05-2023 01:26PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120569349#Comment_120569349

I mean technically you are right - you could get knocked out of provincials, then lose two group games but scrape into a preliminary QF and go on to win it. How likely is that gonna be though? And if some team was able to turnaround that disastrous start to their season I'd say more power to them

In your scenario above, you would have 12 teams left in the championship by now, the rest are gone after a single game - no thanks. I'd much prefer my county having 4 guaranteed championship matches than go back to those days.

Also, people keep saying this "24 games to knock out 4 teams is ridiculous" - why? More games are a good thing, more football is a good thing for all counties. There is a benefit for topping the group, you obviously don't want the extra game or want to finish bottom. Does "playing 24 games to knock out 8 teams" sound significantly better or something?

Just give the new format a chance. Everyone and their mother has their own structure knocking around in their head, and you can pick holes in every single one, there are some drawbacks to this one but also lots of benefits so at least give it a chance

dxhound2005 · 08-05-2023 01:37PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120569685#Comment_120569685

They would never have invented the Tailteann, if they are afraid of small crowds. How many people are going to turn up in that massive stadium in Limerick to see the locals against Longford next Saturday? There are another 7 Tailteann games on at the weekend.

Only the Cavan v Laois game is on GAAGO, double header with the U20 Final, so no excuses for the fans to stay at home. Other attractions are the local derby Wicklow v Carlow, bound to be a big turnout. Meath v Tipp, will the Meath people show any interest? Down v Waterford, a novel pairing. Offaly v London, could be a good crowd over from the big city. Fermanagh v Wexford, long trip for the Yellowbellies. And Antrim v Leitrim, one win each in the League in that tie in the last two years.

StupidLikeAFox · 08-05-2023 02:28PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120570003#Comment_120570003

I get that, I understand the excitement that brings. But I still think more games are a good thing. In the good old days kerry had to play 4 games to win an all ireland, over the space of 4 months. Even with the qualifier/backdoor system, the likes of kildare went on "good runs" in the qualifiers, playing several weeks on the bounce, only to come up against a team that had strolled through the provincials and hadnt played in weeks. No system is perfect, but the current one is the most even handed in terms of gametime at least.

dxhound2005 · 08-05-2023 02:34PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120570003#Comment_120570003

Only one team will emerge from the Tailteann, with anything to show for it. A far longer slog this year, compared to the inaugaral competition last year. The balance is probably right at present. Sam has 14 from the 16 who started the League in Division 1 and 2. Plus Westmeath and Sligo. The Tailteann is hard enough for the also rans, without adding in some of those big guns.

StupidLikeAFox · 08-05-2023 02:39PM

I wouldn't like to see the provincials going but one thing they could do is decouple them completely from the Sam maguire and run them as proper cup competitions alongside it.

Then you would have cup finals at the business end of the season. It would give them a renewed focus I think, bigger teams would need to hit the ground running from day 1

It might suit weaker counties who were out of the Sam/tailteann and could focus on provincial

08-05-2023 03:31PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120569747#Comment_120569747

Cora Staunton suggested just 2 going through from the 4 round robin groups and then straight on to the quarter finals proper on the Sunday Game last night. I'd agree with that. Counties will still get a guaranteed 3 games. This preliminary QF round is not needed IMO.

howiya · 08-05-2023 04:32PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120570837#Comment_120570837

The guaranteed games, imo, stems from the refusal to tackle the elephant in the room. How many times do teams meet or train for say the 9 games you've referred to above?

Instead of reducing the number of sessions they increase the number of games and then you've a healthier looking training to games ratio

SheepsClothing · 08-05-2023 04:43PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120570748#Comment_120570748

The 3rd - 4th place games matter to the teams in them, who will get to move on to the next stage of the championship.

Id argue that this format ensures that every game matters, as your finishing position in the group has a direct impact on your path forward in the championship. To reduce it down to "24 games to eliminate 4 teams" is to deliberately miss the point of what is a fairly well thought out system.

Coillte_Bhoy · 08-05-2023 05:48PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120567905#Comment_120567905

Ya why do posters keep bringing this up? It would be easy to seed the teams to ensure two of the top 3 contest the final and if Sligo or Leitim managed to beta one of them, then great

blowitupref · 08-05-2023 05:52PM

First round 1 matches on May 20th/21st confirmed

Saturday May 20

Group 1

Kerry v Mayo, Fitzgerald Stadium, 3pm, GAAGO (I think the winner will top the group, both will be looking to avoid the play off round)

Group 2

Galway v Tyrone, Pearse Stadium, 5.15pm, GAAGO (Galway will be looking to keep their momentum going here, Will Tyrone have improved from the 5 weeks off?)

Group 4

Clare v Donegal, Cusack Park, 2pm (winner of this match will likely finish 3rd in the group)

Sunday May 21

Group 3

Sligo v Kildare, Markievicz Park, 2.30pm (winner of this match will likely finish 3rd in the group)

A pity none of the games are on TV free to air

dxhound2005 · 08-05-2023 06:41PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120571363#Comment_120571363

Until Mayo and Roscommon prove themselves in the All Ireland series, then I say treat them as weak counties. Nothing special about teams who never won an All Ireland since 1944 Roscommon and 1951 Mayo, and only have 5 between them. Despite being given an easy passage to the Semi Final for 100 years. At least Galway make a bit of an effort now and again.

dxhound2005 · 08-05-2023 07:04PM

First round 1 matches on May 20th/21st confirmed @blowitupref

Saturday May 20

Group 1

Kerry v Mayo, Fitzgerald Stadium, 3pm, GAAGO (I think the winner will top the group, both will be looking to avoid the play off round)

Paddy Power odds at 7pm 08 May. Kerry 4/11, Draw 15/2, Mayo 11/4.

Group 2

Galway v Tyrone, Pearse Stadium, 5.15pm, GAAGO (Galway will be looking to keep their momentum going here, Will Tyrone have improved from the 5 weeks off?)

Galway 4/9, Draw 15/2, Tyrone 9/4.

Group 4

Clare v Donegal, Cusack Park, 2pm (winner of this match will likely finish 3rd in the group)

Clare Evens, Draw 13/2, Donegal 11/10.

Sunday May 21

Group 3

Sligo v Kildare, Markievicz Park, 2.30pm (winner of this match will likely finish 3rd in the group)

Sligo 7/2, Draw 9/1, Kildare 1/4.

I wouldn't mind seeing a couple of draws, Clare Donegal looks most likely. Would make the groups interesting.

theoneeyedman · 08-05-2023 07:44PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120569126#Comment_120569126

The Connacht fixture was lunacy.

Sligo and Galway football don't bring huge support, for different reasons. This game should have been played in Sligo, capacity AFAIK 14000, 12000 turned up yesterday and were lost in Castlebar. Normally 35e for a connacht final stand ticket, don't suspect it was any different yesterday.

JP and the boys in Bekan are living in the past, thinking they can pay top dollar and expect 30000 + to turn up for these games - those days are long gone, regardless of who's playing.

Coillte_Bhoy · 08-05-2023 08:40PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120571651#Comment_120571651

...How do i actually delete a full post? My own fault for replying to a troll

Fr Tod Umptious · 08-05-2023 11:21PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120571651#Comment_120571651

Until Mayo and Roscommon prove themselves in the All Ireland series, then I say treat them as weak counties.

I'll fully agree with you on Roscommon.

They have not got beyond quarter final stage in the post 2001 All Ireland series despite winning Connacht a few times.

I think the only reason people rank them as a bigish team theses days is because they unexpectedly finished third in the league and beat Mayo.

But they have beaten Mayo before and never got very far

I'd disagree however about Mayo not proving themselves in the All Ireland series.

They have obviously not won an All Ireland final but appearing in 8 (9 if you include a replay) finals since 2001 is actually being very competitive at that level.

Always_Running · 08-05-2023 11:33PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120572847#Comment_120572847

@dxhound2005 was seeking a reaction whatever about Mayo I don't think too many are expecting Roscommon with small population and resources to be reaching never mind winning All Ireland. Winning the odd Connacht title/reaching All Ireland Quarter final and retaining status in Div 1 is achievement in itself for them lets be honest.

Fr Tod Umptious · 09-05-2023 07:55AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120572877#Comment_120572877

But you have to feel for the Roscommon fans.

In some years they managed to beat both Mayo and Galway but they have not won a game beyond the Connacht final.

kerryjack · 09-05-2023 01:23PM

We wanted more games but realistically they are probably only 8 top teams that would give us those good games, so it's my opinion that only those 8 should play for Sam, play off between those 8, home and away get the Dubs down to kilarney or castlebar in the summer and than play them at home 2 weeks after, look at some of the unreal replays we have had over the years, that's where the excitement was in knock out football.

breezy1985 · 09-05-2023 03:25PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574406#Comment_120574406

Basically the league which is a very well balanced tournament.

Drumpot · 09-05-2023 05:25PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574406#Comment_120574406

I didn't want more games and really miss knockout football. The backdoor concept was as radical as I ever wanted things to get.

Over the last 3 decades, the sport went from one extreme (very few changes in the rules of the sport, none to Sam Maguire tournament) to another (why don't we just abolish provincials(its coming), create group rounds, squeeze inter county football into a smaller calender, lets amend the handpass rule, amend the kick out rule , amend the......).

The sport was never perfect and never will be, but the tail is well and truly wagging the dog in GAA now, tradition be damned! Change it is a commin.. Every f**king year.....

I remember Laois and Westmeath crowd celebrating the Leinster Title in the 00s. Even if Louth win against Dublin next week, it has nowhere near the same meaning in Sam as they will be mauled in the groups. In a one off game any team can beat any team on their day , in a group that's far less likely to happen.

Just feel like its been diluted and devalued completely , we will never see any real meaningful shocks anymore the way its been restructured. I get most people think all these changes are progressive and make it better , but it doesn't really feel like Sam anymore.

gormdubhgorm · 09-05-2023 07:07PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120575574#Comment_120575574

Yeah it is all over the shop- in my opinion it comes back to the main problem of the GAA too democratic. Then they manage to please no one while trying to please everyone. And everything moves so fecking slowly as a result.

Making a proper home and away leagues with groups then knockouts of teams with similar ability is the way to go. Let the provincials be the preseason competition instead of O’Byrne FBD - McGrath cup etc. The way I see it very few provincial matches grab the neutrals. Beyond a farce. And fans of other teams half watch.

MacDanger · 09-05-2023 07:39PM

Not amazing production values but some interesting analysis from this fella

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Glf2UzwKwKs&feature=youtu.be

Fr Tod Umptious · 09-05-2023 11:04PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120577420#Comment_120577420

There hasn't been a ball kicked under the new system yet people are ready to declare it a disaster.

I'll give it this season at least, maybe next as well before making my mind up about it.

manofwisdom · 10-05-2023 12:10AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120577456#Comment_120577456

this is a bit different. Only the group winners into the last 8 compared 1st and 2nd into into the semi final, this version should have less dead rubbers in the group and knock out stand alone Quarter finals is a positive.

The 2023 All Ireland Senior Football Championship (Sam Maguire Cup)

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