Criminal Justice (Incitement to Violence or Hatred and Hate Offences) Bill 2022 - Read OP

TooTired123 · 08-05-2023 08:48AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120568083#Comment_120568083

the fact that I can’t give the obvious reply to this post because I’d be site/thread banned is indicative of where we are today in Ireland.

All I can say is that once the greater part of society becomes aware that both stating and thinking in objective reality terms is becoming illegal, this whole circus will fall apart with no delay.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 08-05-2023 09:02AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120568452#Comment_120568452

Yeah, I know -but that's already happening because people are more interested in telling lies and getting into verbal fistfights than actually resolving conflict or finding common ground.

Over on another there are posters telling lies of mutilating children in order to reaffirm gender and then trying to portray someone else as the threat - why? How does this help? What's the point?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 08-05-2023 09:05AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120568524#Comment_120568524

Ypu can - you just have to make sure the mods know its hypothetical and not your personal opinion.

Ian Hislop used to say on Have I Got News For You - 'you can say anything you like about anyone you like on this show - as long as you include the word "allegedly"'

BattleCorp · 08-05-2023 03:11PM

Here's a meme that some might find offensive.

Would I be subject to charges for possession of memes like this, or even more offensive memes? Or would I be committing a crime if I sent it to some friends on WhatsApp? That's the danger with this law. Where do we draw the line on what's offensive or not? And why is something offensive against the law given that it's so subjective?

Hodger · 08-05-2023 03:44PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120570483#Comment_120570483

Unfortunately yes.

To read some of the details.

" It shall be presumed that the person Intended to communicate the material to the public or a section of the public . "

https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/bill/2022/105/eng/ver_b/b105b22d.pdf?fbclid=IwAR3sFGH7EZjxqHFw8uPtWZt8GryJfcOmoM79hCNKczM8dbP8CEX8NDO9kiQ#page8

In other words guilty until proven Innocent.

Star Bingo · 08-05-2023 03:45PM

https://wethepeople.ie/article.php?id=120

Quareosity killed the Craic.

Marcos · 08-05-2023 03:58PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120568520#Comment_120568520

And while you may disagree fundamentally with these types of individuals, criminalising their right to speak and protest is a scary development. Who’s to say they won’t come after you next?

Which is one of the reasons that Paul Murphy spoke out so vehemently against the act in the Dáil last week. Fair play to him for that.

08-05-2023 04:07PM

I loathe the politics of Noam Chomsky, but his quote on free speech is more than apt here.

If we do not believe in freedom of speech for those we despise, we do not believe in it at all.

The proponents and advocates of this bill believe only in their superior right to free speech over those they consider of lesser import.

hometruths · 08-05-2023 05:26PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120570483#Comment_120570483

It seems unlikely that meme would incite violence, so could it incite hatred?

I guess it depends on the sort of person you might send it to. I think most would agree it's more plausibly likely to intended to incite hatred if you're sharing it with The Anti Homosexual Committee of the National Front, less likely if you're sharing it with gay friends who think the But light boycott is a reactionary pile of nonsense.

But if you're guilty for simply possessing it because it shall be presumed that you intended to communicate it, it follows that the law also presumes who you will communicate it to, and it presumes those people will be incited to violence or hatred.

It is a legally defined presumption of guilt. And it is actually worse than guilty until proven innocent, since the wording makes it is impossible to prove your innocence of something you didn't intend to do.

Irrespective of your views on free speech etc, from a pure implementation/enforcement point of view this is a shockingly bad piece of legislation.

hometruths · 08-05-2023 05:55PM

Actually, rereading that section 9.2.c it's not as bad as first feared.

It looks like in order to be presumed that you intended to communicate, first you would have had to have made the material available on a platform available to the public.

Presumably memes stored on people's phones are not such a platform.

Overheal · 08-05-2023 07:53PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120570668#Comment_120570668

That's very narrow though, and it's a 3 part test - And Section (3) explicitly grants the entitlement to Rebut any claim from Section (2) highlighted.

I posted this post to this website, I clearly know it will be made available to the public.

Overheal · 08-05-2023 07:54PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120568520#Comment_120568520

The Gardai had a watch list of about 20 individuals who they deemed to be “far right agitators” who were speaking on social media and organising anti migrant protests.

Source?

Annasopra · 08-05-2023 09:37PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120572012#Comment_120572012

https://m.independent.ie/news/more-arrests-on-the-way-as-upwards-of-20-far-right-agitators-monitored-by-special-detective-unit/42323956.html

08-05-2023 10:22PM

Legislation such as this creates more far-right agitators because it needlessly creates victimless crimes.

Existing hate speech legislation is sufficient to deal with any aggression. Up until about yesterday, that legislation worked and nobody lost a night's sleep.

Overheal · 09-05-2023 12:32AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120572402#Comment_120572402

@Hungry Burger "They didn’t claim what they were saying or organising the protests was a crime to justify putting them on a list"

This report says in fact they are being arrested do I have that right

Overheal · 09-05-2023 12:33AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120572611#Comment_120572611

Funny that's what people would have said the last time the hate speech legislation was most recently revised.

Annasopra · 09-05-2023 08:33AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120572988#Comment_120572988

We know that claim is untrue though. Reform of the existing legislation has been on the cards for a long time.

SEPT 23 1989 · 09-05-2023 11:08PM

If the “far right” and the “far left” had any sense they would hold a mass rally together against this government decision they won’t because it suits one side today but these things can swing violently the other way and where will your voice be then?

c.p.w.g.w · 10-05-2023 12:12AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120570762#Comment_120570762

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

mrmakbel · 10-05-2023 02:35PM

Government defecates bed, outlaws complaints regarding defecated bed.

AllForIt · 10-05-2023 03:42PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120572988#Comment_120572988

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120573273#Comment_120573273

So there is no 'rise of the far right' then?

Overheal · 10-05-2023 03:44PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120579694#Comment_120579694

Not following the apparent non sequitur. Can you elaborate on your argument

Augme · 10-05-2023 06:20PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120570668#Comment_120570668

Just curious, which part of "where it is proved..." in section 2, are you falling to understand?

Hodger · 11-05-2023 06:38PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120570483#Comment_120570483

Sharon Keogan explains in detail in this video.

https://twitter.com/SenatorKeogan/status/1656689000759930882

alan partridge aha · 11-05-2023 09:38PM

If what she says is true, then this is very worrying.

Hungry Burger · 11-05-2023 09:56PM

Every young lad who is in a Whats App group with his friends will end up in the slammer 😂

BattleCorp · 11-05-2023 09:58PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120585387#Comment_120585387

And the not so young lads like myself. I've a group of friends and we post the most offensive memes we can find to each other. Acting the boll1x like, for the craic and not to stir up hatred.

Star Bingo · 11-05-2023 10:04PM

What’ll happen is lads will skip the “incitement” part and just knuckle down. No point going to jail if you don’t get your kicks

charlie_says · 11-05-2023 10:14PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120568520#Comment_120568520

The majority of the people who agree with this really have nothing to worry about for the most part as they will follow the states and or the medias instructions almost entirely. How people still have normalcy bias after GFC, 9/11, lockdown madness and various crisis including the current nuclear brinkmanship is beyond me.

Hodger · 11-05-2023 10:14PM

https://rumble.com/vjokp9-permit-query.html

This video was posted over a year ago post lockdown, as you can see in the video the people with the banner and Information stall get approached by the guards with a " do you have a permit ? " and " do you have permission ? " and this is well before the passing of planned new laws.

Now imagine if these planned laws against " hate speech " get passed in full and someone is handing out leaflets to promote the " boycott Israel " campaign or someone is handing out leaflets opposing biological males in female sports imagine the power the guards will then have to deal with such dissent on back of any complaints.

Criminal Justice (Incitement to Violence or Hatred and Hate Offences) Bill 2022 - Read OP

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