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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Posts: 2,519 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    My post here was correct. The first scrum they lost was the one after Jenkins was introduced.

    10 scrums total in the game: in the first half: only two, first one solid Leinster ball, second one a Leinster penalty.

    Leinster won a free kick off them as well.

    Toulouse won 2 penalties - in the 54th and 67th min, second one after wholesale changes to the Leinster front row.

    Generally Leinster had rock solid ball to work off all day, and when both first choice front rows were on the field, Leinster shaded it (winning 100% of scrums and a penalty).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,750 ✭✭✭ersatz


    Casting the net yes, but we also need 3 out halves at the WC and until fairly recently we had no idea who they were. Johnny going down in the 6N was always likely and a similar scenario in the WC should be planned for. Some of the only valid criticisms there have been of Farrell is that there was no clarity about who th other two would be until this season. (and I criticised him for it as I thought for a while that RB was obviously going to be involved for his consistency and because he already plays to a high level far more regularly than anyone else.) Obviously a fair few posters here repeat the mantra that game time doesn't make poor players good players but game does make good players better, as does good coaching. Leinster are exhibit A for that. Part of me thinks that Farrell has known for a long time that Byrne was a top candidate and he was slow to include him because he wanted to develop others, knowing that RB would still be there when he needed him.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,007 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Some of the only valid criticisms there have been of Farrell is that there was no clarity about who th other two would be until this season.

    To be fair to Farrell, up until the 6 nations there was clarity; Carbery was clearly seen as 2nd choice. That’s obviously change since.

    Part of me thinks that Farrell has known for a long time that Byrne was a top candidate and he was slow to include him because he wanted to develop others

    I’d be absolutely shocked if that was the case tbh. Pressure for results is too significant.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,007 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Do you have the stats, and on whose scrum?

    No disputing what you have, just genuinely curious.



  • Posts: 2,519 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    “Not disputing what you have, just basically disputing what you have”.

    Scrums:

    1. 14 mins - Leinster put in, Toulouse half. Solid Leinster ball.
    2. 30 mins - Leinster put in, Leinster 22. Leinster penalty - Aldegheri collapsing.
    3. 41 mins - Toulouse put in, half way line. Solid Toulouse ball.
    4. 47 mins - Leinster put in, Leinster 22. Rock solid Leinster ball. Probably should have been Leinster penalty (Barnes instructs to use when Leinster going forward).
    5. 48 mins - Toulouse put in, Toulouse half. Solid Toulouse ball.
    6. 54 mins - Leinster put in, near half way. Toulouse penalty.
    7. 66 mins - Leinster put in, near half way. Leinster free kick, early engage Toulouse.
    8. 67 mins, Toulouse put in, Toulouse half. Toulouse penalty, clear scrum dominance.
    9. 72 mins - Leinster put in, Toulouse half. Solid Leinster scrum.
    10. 76 mins - Toulouse put in, half way. Solid Toulouse ball.

    It’s supported by stats on the Ultimate Rugby app.

    Leinster were 5/6 on their own put in, winning one penalty and one free kick (30 mins and 66 mins).

    Toulouse 4/4 on own ball, winning two penalties (54 mins and 67 mins).



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  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,360 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Just a note, ultimate rugby originally had Leinster down for losing 2 scrums, but have revised it to one after review apparently



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,007 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    “Not disputing what you have, just basically disputing what you have”.

    You’re really reading way too much into this; I simply asked if you had more detailed stats on who’s put-in. That’s relevant.

    (And Stephen N also thought there was a penalty before Jenkins came on, fwiw).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,750 ✭✭✭ersatz


    I mean clarity around number 3, the issue for years has been what happens if/when Johnny goes down. Credit to the coaches through for taking the bull by the horns this season.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,007 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Ah ya, fair enough then. There’s been so much flux around 3rd choice, I think it still there’s one of 3-4 different options that end up travelling.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 134 ✭✭RidleyJones


    If you look at the options(no particular order)

    1. Sexton
    2. R Byrne, Carty, Carbery, B Burns
    3. H Byrne, Crowley, Predergast now

    This is the way I see Farrell has positioned the options.

    From my point of view once Sexton was confirmed as going to WC it was always would Carbery go as backup. His drop in form, the bad game v Fiji hurt him a lot and the concussion so he couldn't get back into the team the next week. Plus the R Byrne cameo. To me Ross's form hasn't massively changed because he was always excellent for Leinster.

    The question I would have is Farrell going to bring Crowley to a WC when he doesn't plan to play him at all or bring Sexton/R Byrne/Carbery which is a lot better combination if they need player to cover for Sexton while not flying in a replacement

    Farrell has rotated players in and out because of form, he has also tested the majority of options at 10 since the last WC. Which is exactly what he should have done. So at this stage he has 1. Sexton 2. R Byrne 3. Crowley/Carbery for the WC prior to the warm up squad



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,866 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    it'll depend on how well carbery goes in the wider squad sessions (presuming hes picked). if hes showing good form then he may get into the squad due to his greater experience. but at this stage if crowley is at a similar level id expect him to be picked instead



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 134 ✭✭RidleyJones


    If both are playing at the same level then I would take Joey, he is the more experienced and will be able to handle a high pressure situation better than Crowley. He was able to close out big games v NZ etc in the summer tour. Crowley has 1 game at international level at 10, plus very little at club level when Munster played him at 12 majority of the season.

    I would be shocked if he isnt picked into the training squad, looking at Wales they have picked everyone more or less :-)



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 17,575 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    I wouldn't be looking at how Wales are doing things as any kind of indicator.

    For Ireland I'd say all but maybe 3 or 4 names are absolutely nailed on already for the RWC squad - For the Welsh it's probably closer to the reverse status.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,007 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    plus very little at club level when Munster played him at 12 majority of the season.

    Just for accuracy, he now has the same number of starts at 10 this season as he has at 12, since he's been 1st choice 10 over the last number of weeks.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭Must love hardship


    Any idea when the irish training squad will be announced?

    I know the Welsh squad was announced this week, but all their teams are finished for the year all ready.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 42,993 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    I think I'd take Harry Byrne as the third out-half. I just think we need to look to the future and we all hope Sexton can stay healthy.

    Unless Sexton gets injured there'll be very little time on the field for the no.3.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,477 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    We don't need to look to the future at the world cup. We just pick the best players in the here and now.

    I'd be surprised if Harry Byrne is ranked ahead of Jack Crowley at the moment.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,750 ✭✭✭ersatz


    Crazy idea to bring a guy who has 2 minor substitute caps 2 or 3 years ago to the World Cup on the chance that he may not see any game time. There's a very good chance JS doesn't las the competition, the number 3 out half might be playing in a World Cup final!🤞



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 42,993 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Well he's started five or six URC games and looked good. He's even looked good when he's come on for Ross.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,316 ✭✭✭TRC10


    Honestly, if Harry Byrne starts a couple of URC knockouts and plays well, I can see him going. It will cause riots it Munster, but it's definitely not beyond the realms of possibility.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,078 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    It's less than a year since Harry Byrne travelled to NZ as third choice out-half for Ireland. It's injury that has derailed him, not lack of ability.

    Crowley is in the driving seat but I would expect Byrne to be in the wider training squad and from there, who knows?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,819 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    I think both Crowley and HB could travel, depending on Sextons recovery. Crowley is probably in the driving seat now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭Must love hardship


    While alot has been made about crowley and healy being picked for Munster the last few weeks and carberry missing out since the Sharks loss in Europe.

    Less has been made about the fact that Conor Murray is back as the first choice 9 with munster and Playing past 70 minutes the last 2 weeks against the bigger south African packs and picked to start again this week.

    I wonder does this leave the gap open for Blade or even mcgrath or doak to sneak into the irish squad at the expense of Casey.

    Casey had an excellent opportunity to get ahead of Murray this year at munster and failed to capitalise on it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,316 ✭✭✭TRC10


    McGrath is miles off. His passing just is nowhere near good enough. I could maybe see Blade sliding in, who I think is a better player than Casey. But so much time has been invested in Casey I think it's unlikely. But then again, Farrell isn't afraid to make big calls.



  • Posts: 2,519 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    TBF - I don't think Casey's form has diminished hugely, just Murray's form has been excellent since the 6N.

    Couldn't see a scenario where Luke McGrath or Nathan Doak were picked ahead of him (from being way outside at the moment) - they're totally different styles of players.



  • Posts: 2,519 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Big moment this weekend, and potentially last chance for some, for a few players to stake their hand for RWC consideration - on the Leinster side this is a big chance for Michael Milne, Scott Penny and Harry Byrne.

    For Munster it's Loughman (and maybe Kendellen / Hodnett off the bench).

    Connacht - Caolin Blade, Cian Prendergast and Niall Murray will all be keen to keep the hand up.

    Ulster - all of Lowry, Baloucoune, Hume, Treadwell, Timoney are currently on the outside and need big performances. Stockdale will be looking to build on his good form too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭Must love hardship


    I dont know since the 6 nations casey has started only 1 game for Munster. Was whipped off just after half time and has only had 5 minute cameos since. His size is a worry against these bigger packs.

    While doak is unlikely to get picked since he has dropped back behind cooney recently he did start 2 of the emerging ireland games..

    mcgraths familiarity with the leinster players could have him included in the training squad.

    saying all that Blade is probably most likely to be involved given he was around the 6 nations squad.



  • Posts: 2,519 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Yeah, I think Blade is definitely likeliest. Farrell has shown no real inclination that he rates McGrath; I'd be shocked to see him in the squad (absent a glut of injuries).

    Doak seems like the heir to the Conor Murray role in time; similar player stylistically. This RWC might come a bit early for him, but he's still very young.

    On Casey: Farrell has shown time and time again he isn't overly concerned with the selections of provincial coaches. Casey has delivered for him multiple times, I'd be very very surprised to see him miss out at this point.



  • Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭ Everleigh Freezing Oasis


    From what I can gather Casey was first choice for Munster up to the end of the Euro group stages, he started 3/4 include the away game to Toulouse in Jan, but he has only started 2 games since then (someone correct me if I'm wrong). That's two starts since January 22nd. One was against Italy where he was fine and the other against the Sharks which seems to have firmly lost him his place in the team. He got a grand total of 16 mins gametime in the two league games in SA. I'm sure he's more likely to stay in the squad than not but it's not ideal for him running up to the RWC. I'm sure earlier in the season he'd have targeted breaking into the Ireland 23 but that looks fairly impossible this side of the RWC.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,007 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Murray’s form is obviously the main reason in Casey no longer being first choice but I think part of the reason is also around Crowley overtaking Carbery.

    Murr and Crowley have looked like a good, complementary combination the last number of games.



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