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Criminal Justice (Incitement to Violence or Hatred and Hate Offences) Bill 2022 - Read OP

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 853 ✭✭✭MilkyToast


    Not really. Hate speech laws tend to be used as a new form of blasphemy laws. They're not called that because the value system they seek to protect is not officially a religion, but they operate in the same way. They protect sacred cows but do little to tackle hate or ill-feeling between or toward certain groups. The section of this law that is most at issue—the possession of incitement material and the requirement for the accused to prove innocence rather than to receive a presumption of it under law—goes further even than many blasphemy laws.

    I think Paul Murphy (though I would likely disagree with him on a large majority of policy proposals) had it right on this. Laws should be written with an eye toward the absolute worst ways they could be used by the absolute worst people, and not be dependent upon the judiciary to have "common sense". Every totalitarian regime in history rode to power on a wave of well-intentioned people certain they were on the right side of history.

    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 853 ✭✭✭MilkyToast


    I'm telling you that I don't have a gender identity. I do not wish to be referred to as "cis", in the same way I would take exception if my Christian friends insisted on referring to me as a heretic, or my Muslim friends insisted on referring to me as a kuffar. I do not share your ideology. Your failure to see that this is a possibility is only the confusion of an evangelical Christian confronted with an atheist, unable to even conceptualise the very notion of a lack of belief.

    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,366 ✭✭✭Star Bingo


    KISS frontman Paul Stanley said Sunday that affirming the gender identities of children is “a sad and dangerous fad.”




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Broad, gifting your niece a dress is gender-affirming.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 363 ✭✭Astartes


    What about a pair of trousers?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 853 ✭✭✭MilkyToast


    I'm a woman by virtue of having genetics oriented toward the production of large gametes and having reached adulthood.

    Androgyny is a term that refers to a person who holds characteristics that are considered masculine and characteristics that are considered feminine. I have never met a person who is not androgynous in that sense. Such notions of masculinity and femininity are socially constructed and change over distance and time. Frequently.

    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,366 ✭✭✭Star Bingo


    yes Paul could have indentified as a broad at times-



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 853 ✭✭✭MilkyToast


    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    I don’t know him so maybe. Rock culture is chock full of cross dressing and rocky horror picture show type stuff.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,366 ✭✭✭Star Bingo




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 853 ✭✭✭MilkyToast


    We're wildly off-topic, I fear, but there's nothing wrong with that.

    Post edited by MilkyToast on

    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Well back on that topic you’ve dodged a question I asked. Are you an androgynous atheist, given your previous post arguing against the prefix Cis?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,821 ✭✭✭DeadHand


    These laws are a terrible weapon to put in the hands of the State.

    Nebulous enough to be wielded in accordance with the needs of the day, to destroy the enemy of the day.

    Telling the truth, holding a principle, expressing a contrarian opinion; these were often things which were difficult, soon they may be illegal.

    Conformists applaud in the belief this venomous legislation hurts an imaginary Far Right, even as their personal liberty is stripped away.

    You can't support these laws and claim to be a liberal, or even a democrat, these positions are irreconcilable.

    The position of this nation in relation to its government is weakened severely. Discourse and freedom of expression will suffer as a result.

    A horrible development in what used to be a gentle, humane little republic.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    And that would be the end part of it for me.

    Does it protect anyone or anything? No? Then it's not really nessecary.

    Bordering on counterproductive because people are going to shout even louder.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 853 ✭✭✭MilkyToast


    I answered in regard to androgyny.

    I'd probably be an agnostic atheist according to most if we got into it, I guess. Not something I've really thought about much.

    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 853 ✭✭✭MilkyToast


    I'd tend to agree, but I would also say that the potential consequences—foreseen or not—necessitate additional scrutiny when considering legislation that could see people caged.

    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis



  • Posts: 7,681 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It looks like this legislation will see me going to jail for agreeing with what the God I believe in says in the book he gave.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 785 ✭✭✭Hungry Burger


    They can’t win the argument, so they’ll try to shut us up instead.



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  • Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    They can't win the argument because they don't have one. It's all emotional nonsense masquerading as moral superiority and nothing less besides.

    It's a movement animated by hate - hatred of those with whom they disagree.

    Weaponizing legislation to shut those people up isn't a surprise, it's the standard tactic of the ideological totalitarian.

    When you think about it, it's actually pretty pathetic.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    The problem is, they WILL win the argument because the bill will be passed and no one will do anything to stop them. Hell, some of you will re-elect them.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,145 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    This is legislation by NGO. We cannot allow any threat to this most vital sector to form.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    NGO is becoming such an empty term on this forum.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,145 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    We are kind of stuck with it though because if you tried to list them off by name you'd run out of bandwidth.

    It's a bit mad though that the rather benign covid app drew the relative ire of the Irish council for civil liberties, yet they are backing this law where you are guilty until you prove your innocence.



  • Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Whilst this legislation will criminalise legitimate and reasonable opinions, it cannot ever control the minds of the population. We will continue to believe what we believe, at home and in the pub, no matter what gets thrown at us.

    In fact, the more this legislation is weaponized by extremists against decent people, the more the population will turn against the extremists.

    Over time, their ridiculousness will consume themselves.

    Eventually, common sense will make a return and we'll look back at this pathetic phase of Western history with the disdain that it deserves.

    And Helen McEntee is a disgrace, by the way.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,781 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,145 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    I don't share your optimism, and I fear this phase of feelings being more important than facts could easily outlive me.



  • Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Things are changing, though.

    Look at the progress in sport, for example, where common sense has rapidly made a return. It's by no means complete, but the pendulum is shifting back.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 853 ✭✭✭MilkyToast


    The changes have only occurred because people have been working diligently, contacting their TDs and politicians and sports groups, lobbying, informing and otherwise engaging in activism to make sure they did.

    Write to your TDs.

    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis



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