Irish Property Market chat II - *read mod note post #1 before posting*

First we are going to cut the wages of the civil servants, and then the IT workers. Is that what you want :)

There have been lots of layoffs in the IT sector and if the company does not make a profit then you can bet that the employees of that company will not be getting a payrise the same cannot be said for civil servants

Why did you have to quote fliball123 :)

I have him on ignore. Why? Because all of his posts are going off on one about the public sector. They just werent making any sense so I put him on ignore. Even though all I saw was a blank post I knew full well it was some rant about the public sector. which i now see when you quoted him. I can do without seeing them honestly :)

Just to be clear though, I am private sector myself but there is some serious thinly veiled jealousy out there for certain sectors. That kind of stuff is best just avoided altogether. Once you start engaging with them there will be a flood of more rants and then what was an interesting conversation is ruined.

It's not surprising they got pay increases for 6 or 7 years after the troika were in to claw back some of the massive austerity pay cuts some of which were temporary, also a huge new tax/pension deduction on salary was introduced to pay for the same pension they were already getting which is another pay cut relative to pre austerity.

You can't compare private and public sector jobs like they are the same, you need to compare by role and qualifications required etc.

20% higher means nothing, you may as well say HSE doctors get paid 20% more than barristas. Does that 20% include bonuses, tips, cash jobs, tax avoidance patent schemes etc.?

The public sector is open to everyone, if they get such an amazing deal people can just join.

Recent public sector pay increases have been nowhere near keeping track of inflation, they are not 'near inflation' levels.

52% of public sector salary increases for people on the higher rate go straight back to the exchequer (never leaves in the first place) and another large chunk goes back in a pension deduction, which is essentially a new public sector tax brought in post troika, because when it came in it didn't add anything to existing pension benefits. You might be surprised to hear that the public sector is also made up of TAX PAYERs and they are paying a bigger percentage of their salary to the exchequer than anyone else.

Are you seriously holding the UK up as a target for policy? I have to stop typing now my sides hurt too much 🤣

You're free to move to the UK you know, and see your TAX spent wisely!

The case with regards to public sector pensions is the majority of public sector workers including new recruits come no where paying the full costs of their public sector pension. They contribute more than they did but it still falls short. As for pay rises you only have to look at the continued upward cost of servicing public sector pay and pensions from 2013 to 2022 to see that were were pay rises mainly via increments going on but in the land of the public sector an increment is not seen as pay rise yet it all has to be paid for from the tax payers pocket or from borrowing and that borrowing is going to be squarely biting the tax payer in the hole as debt is rolled over to the new higher interest rates

Some major troll feeding going on here. Knew the thread would be ruined. Is this not about the property market?

You're getting very good at taking what I say and running with it ;)

No I'm not saying that. I'm merely saying that higher wages don't happen in a vacuum.

Its the nature of these pensions its defined benefit which is very rare now in the private sector as I said the pension levy went some way to cover some of the costs but that has been eradicated over the years. You only have to ask why the IMF made the government impose such a levy if public servants were paying the full cost?. New recruits do cover more of the cost of their pensions but the actual actuarial total costs of funding these pensions is not fully covered by what is paid in and the amount given in each pension goes up with each one of these pay rises to both existing and future public sector pensioners.

Will you come on and stop spinning. We have a country renowned for being highly educated record numbers going to third level and of course the high tech, pharma and high paying jobs its the main reason why our immigration numbers inverted back in 2014/15 when foreigners were seeing these jobs and wanted to get in on the act and you think we have more unskilled workers than all other countries. Come on nice try but come on. Every country has some element of paid in cash and tips, etc I mean that would be mainly the hospitality sector and countries like Spain, Portugal ye know countries that actually get a decent summer would be getting paid in cash and tips etc a lot more than in Ireland.. I didn't check on the nature of the other countries pensions with regards to how its paid. Also the pension levy has never been anywhere near 20% of a public servants salary. So your argument fails right there

My argument is that you can't state that the public sector are 20% better paid than the private sector without a tonne of data to back that comparison up, and you need to make all sorts of adjustments for things like pension levies, unreported income etc.

Posting a non peer reviewed report that has an estimate of a public-private premium for Ireland that just says 'as calculated by the IMF' isn't that.

A lot of out of date info in this thread with the grandads out in force.

Public pensions were gutted in 2013.

If we are concerned about wasting money on Irish people having a decent quality of life we should start with raising the pension age to 70.

Better yet let’s discuss property instead.

You don't have to look at other countries, you are the one citing IMF reports that compare across countries.

My point is simple and you can just compare within Ireland, if the difference is driven by unskilled workers in both (as per your IMF report), and unskilled workers in the private sector get 20% of their pay unreported in cash, tips etc. or they get bonuses that don't factor in the salary figures, that would explain it.

Show me someone working in IT in the public sector that is getting paid 20% more than someone doing the same job in the private sector (including bonus, share options and any tax free patent schemes etc.) and I'll believe you.

We have more skilled workers in this country as I said we are renowned for our highly educated work force one of the many reasons why a lot MNCs and a lot of foreign workers have come to this country. The figures of corpo tax show the MNCs who have relocated here and set up and the numbers of migration inwards show the workers coming in to take up these jobs.

The countries in the comparison have roughly the same % of unskilled workers and they would also get the same unreported pay in cash and tips unless you can prove otherwise?

Also every other country like the Scandinavian countries and the UK would have IT workers in both sectors yet there is not a 20% pay differential when the average is looked at.

We can only see the data that is present in both the IMF report and the CSO report (2 independent bodies with zero skin in the game) so what does it show.

It shows 20% differential between the 2 sectors in Ireland

It shows Ireland as having the highest differential in all countries.

It has no stat on black market activity. - This is you guessing and believing Ireland is somehow an outlier with regards to money taken in under the table without paying tax. Show me the proof of this vs the other countries outlined in the IMF report.

It has no stat on skilled vs unskilled yet again you are guessing and then forget that the same differential is probably the same in other countries as well. Once again can you show me proof of this?

What I can point to with regards to the skilled vs unskilled is the many multinational companies that have set up here and the fact that our tax system takes in a very high amount of income tax annually and those on the lower end pay little or nothing towards income tax which would skew the numbers that have a skilled job so we have more skilled than unskilled. I can point to our record levels of graduates from third level over the last 2 decades as well.

So prove that Ireland is an outlier with regards to black market activity compared to other countries named in the IMF report and prove that we are awash with unskilled labour in the private sector compared to the other countries outlined in the IMF report. Otherwise your guessing.

Degiro

revolut for currency, might be worthwhile to get the 7euro pm premium plan