Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Should i Rent or sell my house ?

Options
2

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,775 ✭✭✭mrslancaster



    +1.

    If you sell then find you dont want to stay in spain, it could be very expensive to buy again in dublin.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,067 ✭✭✭DubCount


    No Agenda, and no case to rent out the property. Its a clear sell decision for me (or maybe leave vacant until settled and then sell)

    Most tenants are good people, but we have created an insane rental market in Ireland. We actively support overholding and a process of legal eviction that can take over 2 years, even if the tenant is not paying rent. If you get a bad tenant, it will cost a fortune. If OP rents out the property, they will still be liable to pay tax in Spain, and will have to do tax returns in Spain as well as Ireland. Then there is dealing with any issues that arise in the property while living in a different country - how are property visits etc going to work. Anyone who believes that being a landlord is "hands off" has never been a landlord. What if OP decides to give up on Spain and return to Ireland - all the capital is tied up in a rental property and there is limited chance of getting access to the property they own in any kind of short timeframe. As bad as things are now, another anti-landlord measure is just around the corner. Then the OP will be liable to a CGT liability in a couple of years time when they do sell, even if the value of the property stays flat.

    There is no way renting sounds like a viable option to OP.



  • Registered Users Posts: 162 ✭✭good vibes


    CGT ?.. As a non resident i pay 20% tax.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Incorrect on Spanish taxation. Ireland has had a double taxation agreement with Spain for decades now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 162 ✭✭good vibes


    Excatly...



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 28,827 ✭✭✭✭HeidiHeidi


    No CGT payable on the sale of a PPR, which I'm assuming is the case in the OP.

    There would be CGT on the rise in value during the years it was rented, if the OP decides to go that way. As well as income tax for those years as well.

    I've just got rid of a single property that I have rented for the last 20+ years, and would have happily continued renting for the next 20, if the risk/reward balance had not shifted so far to risk. Absolutely not worth it IMO - you might be fine, but you might not - and if a tenant goes rogue it can go very, very wrong.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,067 ✭✭✭DubCount


    I think you fill find that if you are resident in Spain you will be liable for Spain Tax on your world wide income and you will get a credit for Irish Tax paid (on immovable property).



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Lol, "I think you'll find..."

    What quite a turn of phrase for someone running for cover at posting in incorrect information. Double taxation agreements by their very operation ensure you don't pay on the double for the the same notional liability in two jurisdictions.

    I never said you don't have to declare it, I'm fully aware.

    You said the individual "will be liable" as if they'll be paying twice. That's false, and you now know it is.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,067 ✭✭✭DubCount


    I'm sure the Boards community dont want this thread derailed by a discussion on Double Taxation treaties, so lasp post from me on this.

    When you are resident in Spain and own and Irish property that you rent out, you pay tax in Ireland in the first instance. You are liable also for Spanish tax ond you get a credit for Irish tax paid. If you pay 20% tax in Ireland and 35% in Spain, you pay 20% in Ireland and 15% (35%-20%) in Spain.



  • Registered Users Posts: 370 ✭✭bluedex


    Avoid renting for all the reasons mentioned. Unfortunately, in present day Ireland, leaving it vacant is a better option if you're not sure you want to sell.

    Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 3,629 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    I'd sell up and put the cash into some other investments or use it for home improvement.



  • Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭niallpatrick


    I'd sell, new life elsewhere having to worry about property back home which was still mine is hassle I could do without.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    The joker in the pack here is that you 'might' want to come back to Ireland at some point- and presumably resume residence in your current abode. The obvious thing to do- is a trial period in Spain to see whether the grass really is greener over there- or whether you can see an impetus to return here.

    In the current climate- and the way things are being signposted by Eoin O'Broin and others- it makes little sense to rent out your current property- if you ever intend to move back into it ever again.

    Are you willing to become a landlord and all it entails- or would you like a nice peaceful life?

    The cards are stacked against any prospective landlords (wholly aside from the tax situation). The legislative framework is setup solely to protect the tenant in their home- there are precious few rights for landlords, and even some of them that are currently there (grounds for ending a lease for personal or family use for example) look set to be further eroded.

    I would subscribe to the train of thought that you leave the property vacant for short period of time while you get yourself together in Spain- and then you sell. You are highly unlikely to get vacant possession to sell the property in the future if you let it out now- anyone who suggests otherwise is a fool.

    The question for me- if I were in your position- is do I sell now- or do I move to Spain and use the next 6 months to empty the house, repaint it and do it up for sale- and then sell it in 6-12 months time.

    The argument for a delayed sale- is only because you are already humming and hawing about possibly coming back. If you could decide to make a clean break of it- there would be no possible question- it would be sell, sell, sell.........

    Prices are stagnant (or falling if in Dublin) in light of the recent mortgage interest rate increases. The old adage about snoozing and loosing- is true. You will loose some of the value of your property the longer you take to decide whether you'll sell or not. It might not be a vast amount but remember a 1% fall in prices (such as we have already had in Dublin in the last 12 months) equals a 1k for every 100k value of the property- and if interest rates continue to increase- this will only speed up.

    The cards are stacked against letting the property or delaying selling it- the only argument for delaying selling is the fact that you can't make your mind up whether you might want to come back or not.

    You need to get down off the fence and come to a decision. I think its pretty obvious what the sanest option is- whether you feel similarly inclined or not- is your discretion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,368 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    What proportion of renters act as you say? Undoubtedly some should never be given a rental. But are we talking 1%, 5%??? Many renters are decent ordinary people who pay their rent on time, look after the property and behave well towards their neighbours etc.

    I point out again that most if not all adults in Ireland will have rented or be renting at some stage of their life. If they haven't, then they've either lived with Mammy & Daddy or born with a silver spoon and a family with a string of properties. The fact that most people who are small scale landlords now will have rented themselves should inform the discussion more. Less of the blackguarding of tenants.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,067 ✭✭✭DubCount


    I said in my post that most renters are good people. Stats from the RTB are difficult to read and not very up to date. Somewhere around 2000 - 2500 disputes are raised about rent arrears and overholding every year. So somewhere over 1%. It should be noted that that excludes instances of tenants being paid off to leave etc which dont end up in the stats.

    The problem for small landlords, is not the chances of getting stung, its the massive impact of getting stung. 2 years unpaid rent plus legal costs and repairs could put a 50,000 Euro hole in your finances. Even at a 100/1 shot, its financial Russian roulette. Fine if you are a REIT with hundreds of tenants, but not if you are a one property landlord, is that a risk you can afford?

    The frustrating part of the the system we have, is that the small minority of bad tenants have a big impact on driving landlords out, and this costs the majority of good tenants a large chunk of money through higher rents.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,775 ✭✭✭mrslancaster



    Nobody is blackguarding tenants who play by the rules. Its well known there are rogue bad tenants who dont pay rent and thrash properties.

    Demonising landlords who play by the rules is not on either, but the dogs in the street know that landlords have regularly been criticised by the media and blamed for all the problems in the market. Also, they are constantly vilified by some elected public representatives. Its pretty nasty behaviour and shameful to hear those td's speaking about one section of our citizens like that.

    Its well known there are thousands of rentals that tick along with no issues. Its unfortunate that the government didnt take those folks into consideration when they started changing the regulations.

    i've been reading here on boards for years that the changes were all one-sided and landlords would leave which is exactly what happened. Now things are worse for everyone because the rules were changed to appease the opposition and tenant charities who were advocates for the small % who didnt obey the rules. Bad cases make for poor laws comes to mind yet there's more populist legislation on the way where the control that landlords have on their property will take another hit in favour of tenants. The rental market here = death by a thousand cuts.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,368 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Grand, well given that most renters are fine - wouldn't the advice to the OP be better framed as "let the house while you're away as you'll have something to come back to if it doesn't work out. There should be no issues but do note that you could just be unlucky with a tenant, it happens so be careful who you let to'?

    But that's not the tone of the replies - it's all along the lines that you must be mad to consider letting!!



  • Registered Users Posts: 77 ✭✭covidcustomer


    Looking from a renters perspective, I'd be unwilling to rent somewhere if there was any suggestion that it might be short term and that the deciding factor would be up to a LL, who may or may not decide their move is permanent (no offence to the OP), one would hope that this would be clear at the start of any lease.

    The OP should possibly consider contacting companies who have an international workforce where accommodation is required on a continuous short term basis, that way, if they decide their move is not permanent then they won't have a permanent tenant in place.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,163 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    If you have one property and one bad tenant then it is 100% of your property which is affected. There is no risk spreading oprtion available apart from a few pooled rental schemes in student apartment blocks. Ther might be less tha a 1% chance of a car crash every time you go driving on the road but if you go on the road without insurance and cause damage you pay 100% , not 1%. Same with renting. The chances of something happening migh be low but the consequences when it does can be high.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,460 ✭✭✭vandriver


    You know it's not the law that rent is taxed at 52% don't you?



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 3,452 ✭✭✭Ginger83


    What would happen if a bad tenant stopped paying rent or a landlord stopped mortgage payments? Mortgage interest is still accruing so would it still be deductible?

    The OP should sell if the move is permanent. Ireland's rental market is only going to get worse and with the stroke of a pen the OP may never be allowed to regain possession of their property.



  • Registered Users Posts: 77 ✭✭covidcustomer


    I get your analogy here, but not your logic, as this would mean no-one should drive a car would it not? Maybe I am misunderstanding, apologies if this is the case.

    All investments involve an element of risk, people contemplating any investment should (imo) do it on a long term basis, over the course of 20 years (or more), yes they might get a bad tenant, but they may get 10 goods ones.

    I think the OP (and others considering same) shouldn't rent out their home because at the moment they simply don't know if the move is permanent.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,757 ✭✭✭Grumpypants


    It's taxed as income so you pay PAYE + USC + PRSI. So for most that's going to be 40%+8%+4%=52%


    So unless I've missed a memo about a change to the law regarding paying tax that's what you pay.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,460 ✭✭✭vandriver


    It's entirely dependent on other relatively high income whether the rental income would hit 52%.

    My point is that it's not a given



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,120 ✭✭✭herbalplants


    Yes true all investments involve risk only that at the present moment, renting a house as a landlord presents a huge risk, one that can put the owner under... If the law was there to deal quickly with non paying tenants like 2 - 3 months maximum, that is a manageable risk but we don't have proper laws in place yet.

    When proper laws will be in place, it will be way better not only for landlords but for tenants...

    What you simply miss is the point that landlords leaving affects tenants... They are the ones suffering!!

    Living the life



  • Registered Users Posts: 162 ✭✭good vibes


    20% tax if the person is resident in an other country.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,019 ✭✭✭✭Caranica


    That's only an interim payment off tax liability. You could be hit by a much bigger tax bill in the future



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,552 ✭✭✭Allinall




  • Registered Users Posts: 6,317 ✭✭✭gameoverdude


    If you own a rental property it's unlikely you're on minimum wage.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 996 ✭✭✭mitresize5


    In a similar enough position at the moment, just finishing an 18 renovation and had always planned to move into the new house and rent out the existing one.

    We were really thinking of selling but have decided to make it available to Ukrainian refugees via the local council.

    You get 800e a month tax free and you only have to commit for 6 months at a time.

    We are waiting for clarification whether it will set the rent benchmark for PRTB purposes. If it does we will leave it empty and pay the mortgage down monthly.

    The 800e is less than 50% of the market rate locally for rent. But considering the tax rate and potential of a SF government its a no brainer for now. We will reasses in a few years.

    Might be something to consider



Advertisement