Should i Rent or sell my house ?

good vibes

Hi.

Im a home owner in Dublin -( no mortgage ).. Im moving to Spain and id like to rent my house.. Is this a bad idea in the current housing market ? Would it be better to sell ?

Id like to rent if possible but id be concerned if i did tenents wouldn't leave if i wanted to return in a couple of years .

Im just concerned i could be walking into lot of trouble if i rented out my house in the housing crisis as it is ?..

Any info be appreciated.

Thanks.

The Ging and I

Sell sell sell, don't complicate your life. Enjoy Spain.

ParkRunner

Sell OP. Renting could work out well if you get really lucky with good tenants but the landlord experience could also cost you very dearly in terms of time and money, especially if you did want to return someday. It’s not worth the risk or the hassle being a small scale landlord in this country. If your move to Spain is permanent then it’s a no-brainer, sell!

Rustyman101

Sell 100 times over, we are heading into uncharted territory as regards property rights in Ireland IMHO.

Homer

sell it and invest the funds into a pension fund that will deliver good returns without the hassle and stigma that comes with being a single property landlord in this country. And as mentioned it’s only going to get worse

wildwillow

SELL

NewbridgeIR

Sell.

If you rent it out, the Left will hate you.

DubCount

Sell

Iodine1

Could Sinn Fein, Holli Cairns, Paul Murphy, Threshold, Focus and all the rest of them please take note of the answers in this thread, and therein is your answer as to why there are no houses to rent in Ireland anymore!

Redders8282

Sell, buy as many rental properties you can afford in Spain and either rent them out long-term or throw on AirB&B

Caranica

Sell, sell, sell and don't look back.

Grumpypants

Living abroad with no mortgage changes everything. You pay 20% tax and keep the rest. Decent tenants and you will have a nice income in Spain.

Only reason to not be a landlord is tied to being here, paying 52% tax and having a mortgage.

PropJoe10

I'm also kinda in the OP's position and am wondering whether to rent long-term or sell. Interesting to get people's perspective. The rental market is really fecked isnt it.

tallaghtfornia

Haven’t posted on boards in a long time - but seen your post and had to respond to it - take it from me do not become a small landlord in this country it’s not worth the stress and hassle - If your move is permanent SELL

Grumpypants

It's only hassle here because you can't make money doing it. But if you are making 15- 20k a year, it's defo worth the hassle.

Get yourself a decent maintenance guy who can fix stuff for you and a shop that will install any new white goods. Covers 99% of what will go wrong.

If you were just moving to Kerry I'd say sell.

normanbond

Agree with the above.

The public conversation about renting is all about the tenant, there is little or no sympathy for the landlord.

The government has a big tax take from the landlord while the landlord deals with rising mortgage rates, tradesmen & materials rising costs, tenant issues etc.

The PTRB are heavily weighted in favour of the tenant, no real recourse if a tenant trashes your place or does a bunk on rent!

Your house may need expensive upgrades to adhere to new rental regulations.

A new Sinn Fein type government will be coming after your hard earned income to distribute amongst their ‘voters’.

Sorry for the bleakly painted picture of today’s small scale landlord ……,

Girl Geraldine

Do you have a temperature? What a questions.

SELL SELL SELL.

Why would you rent in this anti-landlord, housing crisis environment. No rent is worth the hassle.

Once you have a tenant in now you are stuck with them. It is near impossible to get them out.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120450932#Comment_120450932

The government has a big tax take from the landlord while the landlord deals with rising mortgage rates, tradesmen & materials rising costs, tenant issues etc.

Every single one of those is deductible as an expense against tax. That is of course if the teneancy is RTB registered (which the landlord is legally obliged to)

herbalplants

Leave it empty for a year until you fully know you want to live in Spain for the rest of your life.

Or rent one room, lock the other rooms for your own use.

What I am trying to say is make sure you don't realise after few months Spain wasn't really for you and cannot buy back in Ireland.

Homer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120451055#Comment_120451055

Rising mortgage rates is not tax deductable??????

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120451175#Comment_120451175

Since 2019, 100% of mortgage interest accrued is deductible against the rent for tax purposes. Tenancies must be RTB registered to avail of this and other allowable deductions.

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120451055#Comment_120451055

Didn't know those expenses were deductible against tax - how does that work exactly?

Homer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120451207#Comment_120451207

Yes interest not mortgage rates. Big difference

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120451226#Comment_120451226

Same as any other deduction on an annual return. Keep the receipts and plug in the relevent deductions.

Other deductions permitted besides mortgage interest for landlords:

General expenses

Allowable expenses include:

• rates you pay to a local authority for the property
• rents you pay for property such as ground rents
• insurance premiums against fire and public liability
• maintenance of your property such as cleaning, painting and decorating
• property fees before you first rent out your property such as management, advertising, legal or accountancy fees
• cost of any service or goods you provide that are not repaid by your tenant (such as electricity, central heating, telephone, service charges, water and refuse collection).
• certain mortgage protection policy premiums
• expenses in between renting out the property in certain circumstances
• capital allowances
• repairs, such as rot treatment, mending windows, doors or machines
• certain pre-letting expenses on vacant residential property
• the cost of registering with the Residential Tenancies Board (RTB).

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120451234#Comment_120451234

?

Your "mortgage rate" is your mortgage interest accrued, which is deductible against the rent taken-in for tax for landlords.

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120451254#Comment_120451254

Ah right, sorry I thought you said deductible against tax.

I was thinking for a minute there you meant that all those expenses could be deducted from the tax due and wondering why on earth landlords talk about high taxes.

BruteStock

Its a no brainer to sell , but what about CGT? Could more be made by renting in the long run depending on the worth of the house.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120451321#Comment_120451321

In a roundabout way it is. Johnny taxpayer (including renters need we say it)and the exchequer essentially cover the mortgage interest risk premium for landlords (and much more besides) via forgone taxation. You can radically reduce your tax bill on rental income if you box clever.

If Irish landlords are playing an béal bocht, perhaps they should light a candle for their counterparts in the UK, where George Osborne completely got rid of interest relief for landlords.

kazamo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120451144#Comment_120451144

100% this, there is a third option and that is do nothing.

Go to Spain and once settled make the decision on whether you rent it, sell it or even return. It is a big decision so no point rushing into it.

Good luck with the move

Furze99

Why do I smell an agenda here or at very least people jumping to an agenda??

Assuming OP is genuine.. then there is a case to rent is there not, if they think that they may return in a year or two? That is assuming they like living where there present Dublin property is located etc. Tenants are not ogres, I'll bet nearly every property owner here has been a tenant at some stage.

Grumpypants

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120451321#Comment_120451321

That's right. If you spend €1000 of the rent you get on fixing something in the house then you do not have to pay the €500 tax bill you would get for earning €1000.

Because that would mean it would cost a landlord €1500 to fix €1000 worth of issues.

So to reduce your tax bill by 500,just spend 1000.

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120451381#Comment_120451381

+1.

If you sell then find you dont want to stay in spain, it could be very expensive to buy again in dublin.

DubCount

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120451417#Comment_120451417

No Agenda, and no case to rent out the property. Its a clear sell decision for me (or maybe leave vacant until settled and then sell)

Most tenants are good people, but we have created an insane rental market in Ireland. We actively support overholding and a process of legal eviction that can take over 2 years, even if the tenant is not paying rent. If you get a bad tenant, it will cost a fortune. If OP rents out the property, they will still be liable to pay tax in Spain, and will have to do tax returns in Spain as well as Ireland. Then there is dealing with any issues that arise in the property while living in a different country - how are property visits etc going to work. Anyone who believes that being a landlord is "hands off" has never been a landlord. What if OP decides to give up on Spain and return to Ireland - all the capital is tied up in a rental property and there is limited chance of getting access to the property they own in any kind of short timeframe. As bad as things are now, another anti-landlord measure is just around the corner. Then the OP will be liable to a CGT liability in a couple of years time when they do sell, even if the value of the property stays flat.

There is no way renting sounds like a viable option to OP.

good vibes

CGT ?.. As a non resident i pay 20% tax.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120451498#Comment_120451498

Incorrect on Spanish taxation. Ireland has had a double taxation agreement with Spain for decades now.

good vibes

Excatly...

HeidiHeidi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120451344#Comment_120451344

No CGT payable on the sale of a PPR, which I'm assuming is the case in the OP.

There would be CGT on the rise in value during the years it was rented, if the OP decides to go that way. As well as income tax for those years as well.

I've just got rid of a single property that I have rented for the last 20+ years, and would have happily continued renting for the next 20, if the risk/reward balance had not shifted so far to risk. Absolutely not worth it IMO - you might be fine, but you might not - and if a tenant goes rogue it can go very, very wrong.

DubCount

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120451520#Comment_120451520

I think you fill find that if you are resident in Spain you will be liable for Spain Tax on your world wide income and you will get a credit for Irish Tax paid (on immovable property).

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120451762#Comment_120451762

Lol, "I think you'll find..."

What quite a turn of phrase for someone running for cover at posting in incorrect information. Double taxation agreements by their very operation ensure you don't pay on the double for the the same notional liability in two jurisdictions.

I never said you don't have to declare it, I'm fully aware.

You said the individual "will be liable" as if they'll be paying twice. That's false, and you now know it is.

DubCount

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120451784#Comment_120451784

I'm sure the Boards community dont want this thread derailed by a discussion on Double Taxation treaties, so lasp post from me on this.

When you are resident in Spain and own and Irish property that you rent out, you pay tax in Ireland in the first instance. You are liable also for Spanish tax ond you get a credit for Irish tax paid. If you pay 20% tax in Ireland and 35% in Spain, you pay 20% in Ireland and 15% (35%-20%) in Spain.

bluedex

Avoid renting for all the reasons mentioned. Unfortunately, in present day Ireland, leaving it vacant is a better option if you're not sure you want to sell.

RichardAnd

I'd sell up and put the cash into some other investments or use it for home improvement.

niallpatrick

I'd sell, new life elsewhere having to worry about property back home which was still mine is hassle I could do without.

The_Conductor

The joker in the pack here is that you 'might' want to come back to Ireland at some point- and presumably resume residence in your current abode. The obvious thing to do- is a trial period in Spain to see whether the grass really is greener over there- or whether you can see an impetus to return here.

In the current climate- and the way things are being signposted by Eoin O'Broin and others- it makes little sense to rent out your current property- if you ever intend to move back into it ever again.

Are you willing to become a landlord and all it entails- or would you like a nice peaceful life?

The cards are stacked against any prospective landlords (wholly aside from the tax situation). The legislative framework is setup solely to protect the tenant in their home- there are precious few rights for landlords, and even some of them that are currently there (grounds for ending a lease for personal or family use for example) look set to be further eroded.

I would subscribe to the train of thought that you leave the property vacant for short period of time while you get yourself together in Spain- and then you sell. You are highly unlikely to get vacant possession to sell the property in the future if you let it out now- anyone who suggests otherwise is a fool.

The question for me- if I were in your position- is do I sell now- or do I move to Spain and use the next 6 months to empty the house, repaint it and do it up for sale- and then sell it in 6-12 months time.

The argument for a delayed sale- is only because you are already humming and hawing about possibly coming back. If you could decide to make a clean break of it- there would be no possible question- it would be sell, sell, sell.........

Prices are stagnant (or falling if in Dublin) in light of the recent mortgage interest rate increases. The old adage about snoozing and loosing- is true. You will loose some of the value of your property the longer you take to decide whether you'll sell or not. It might not be a vast amount but remember a 1% fall in prices (such as we have already had in Dublin in the last 12 months) equals a 1k for every 100k value of the property- and if interest rates continue to increase- this will only speed up.

The cards are stacked against letting the property or delaying selling it- the only argument for delaying selling is the fact that you can't make your mind up whether you might want to come back or not.

You need to get down off the fence and come to a decision. I think its pretty obvious what the sanest option is- whether you feel similarly inclined or not- is your discretion.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120451498#Comment_120451498

What proportion of renters act as you say? Undoubtedly some should never be given a rental. But are we talking 1%, 5%??? Many renters are decent ordinary people who pay their rent on time, look after the property and behave well towards their neighbours etc.

I point out again that most if not all adults in Ireland will have rented or be renting at some stage of their life. If they haven't, then they've either lived with Mammy & Daddy or born with a silver spoon and a family with a string of properties. The fact that most people who are small scale landlords now will have rented themselves should inform the discussion more. Less of the blackguarding of tenants.

DubCount

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120452648#Comment_120452648

I said in my post that most renters are good people. Stats from the RTB are difficult to read and not very up to date. Somewhere around 2000 - 2500 disputes are raised about rent arrears and overholding every year. So somewhere over 1%. It should be noted that that excludes instances of tenants being paid off to leave etc which dont end up in the stats.

The problem for small landlords, is not the chances of getting stung, its the massive impact of getting stung. 2 years unpaid rent plus legal costs and repairs could put a 50,000 Euro hole in your finances. Even at a 100/1 shot, its financial Russian roulette. Fine if you are a REIT with hundreds of tenants, but not if you are a one property landlord, is that a risk you can afford?

The frustrating part of the the system we have, is that the small minority of bad tenants have a big impact on driving landlords out, and this costs the majority of good tenants a large chunk of money through higher rents.

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120452648#Comment_120452648

Nobody is blackguarding tenants who play by the rules. Its well known there are rogue bad tenants who dont pay rent and thrash properties.

Demonising landlords who play by the rules is not on either, but the dogs in the street know that landlords have regularly been criticised by the media and blamed for all the problems in the market. Also, they are constantly vilified by some elected public representatives. Its pretty nasty behaviour and shameful to hear those td's speaking about one section of our citizens like that.

Its well known there are thousands of rentals that tick along with no issues. Its unfortunate that the government didnt take those folks into consideration when they started changing the regulations.

i've been reading here on boards for years that the changes were all one-sided and landlords would leave which is exactly what happened. Now things are worse for everyone because the rules were changed to appease the opposition and tenant charities who were advocates for the small % who didnt obey the rules. Bad cases make for poor laws comes to mind yet there's more populist legislation on the way where the control that landlords have on their property will take another hit in favour of tenants. The rental market here = death by a thousand cuts.

Furze99

Grand, well given that most renters are fine - wouldn't the advice to the OP be better framed as "let the house while you're away as you'll have something to come back to if it doesn't work out. There should be no issues but do note that you could just be unlucky with a tenant, it happens so be careful who you let to'?

But that's not the tone of the replies - it's all along the lines that you must be mad to consider letting!!

covidcustomer

Looking from a renters perspective, I'd be unwilling to rent somewhere if there was any suggestion that it might be short term and that the deciding factor would be up to a LL, who may or may not decide their move is permanent (no offence to the OP), one would hope that this would be clear at the start of any lease.

The OP should possibly consider contacting companies who have an international workforce where accommodation is required on a continuous short term basis, that way, if they decide their move is not permanent then they won't have a permanent tenant in place.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120452648#Comment_120452648

If you have one property and one bad tenant then it is 100% of your property which is affected. There is no risk spreading oprtion available apart from a few pooled rental schemes in student apartment blocks. Ther might be less tha a 1% chance of a car crash every time you go driving on the road but if you go on the road without insurance and cause damage you pay 100% , not 1%. Same with renting. The chances of something happening migh be low but the consequences when it does can be high.

vandriver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120450854#Comment_120450854

You know it's not the law that rent is taxed at 52% don't you?