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BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,934 ✭✭✭Daith


    Would people know when the F Spine and the L62 are planned for. I know current dates are all up in the air, but if there was any rough schedule?



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,552 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    The original plan was for the F-Spine to happen in Spring 2023.

    I can't see it happening until much later this year, if at all in 2023. Dublin Bus seem still to be suffering significant driver shortages, judging by the levels of service cancellations and curtailments, so that will affect the launch of any new services.

    The L62 would be tied in with the B-Spine changes I suspect, which were scheduled for Autumn 2024, but that will be pushed back too.



  • Registered Users Posts: 244 ✭✭DaBluBoi


    Yall also happen to know if the W2 will be launched alongside the W4/W61/W62, or will it be introduced with the Southern Orbitals?



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,552 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    I really think we are in the territory of these routes will happen when they can.

    I wouldn’t fixate on target dates at all, given the ongoing staffing issues.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,302 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    The NTA have put up a new rollout schedule for the route network phases of BusConnects Dublin.

    2023

    W4 & W6 - 30th April

    Southern Orbitals - 25th June

    F Spine - 27th August

    E Spine & O route - Nov 26th

    2024

    D Spine - April

    A Spine - June

    B Spine - August

    Remaining Routes - December



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,934 ✭✭✭Daith


    Thanks all! Was hoping the L62 route would be sooner. The 40e going through estates in Cabra is death. But it's a useful service.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,275 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Sounds a little too optimistic to me.



  • Registered Users Posts: 244 ✭✭DaBluBoi


    I mean it says it was last updated months ago, so I agree, especially with the positioning of Phases 5 and 5a that seems unrealistic



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,275 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    If in doubt just say you'll do everything next year



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,390 ✭✭✭StreetLight


    Any sign of imminent improvement in driver staffing levels?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 927 ✭✭✭d51984


    A lot of people failing the tests apparently, I really cant see anything improving this year tbh.

    Its a disgrace Joe!



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,205 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    Are there still plans to cut down trees and infromge into gardens as part of this roll out?

    I remember all the ribbons tied around the trees, but you dont see them so much now.

    Lower Baggot St is a particularly lovely street and it seemed crazy to me that we could think about ruinimg that streetscape just to fire more buses up and down it. By all means, ban the cars, but dont widen the roads even further and have us exist in a motorway.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,552 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Watch the numbers of buses parked on Eden Quay. There should only ever be max 2 or 3 on the north side (27a & 27b) and one on the south side (61).

    Once you see multiple buses parked up there that will give you an idea of the driver shortages.

    From my experience of a recent glut of cancelled/curtailed services, there is still a fair way to go.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,552 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    This thread is about the revised network.

    The infrastructure plans are a separate project, and six corridors have had planning applications lodged with ABP.

    https://busconnects.ie/initiatives/core-bus-corridors/

    There were never any plans to cut down trees on Lower Baggot Street. Some people got the wrong end of the stick and spread a lot of incorrect rumours.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,205 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    Thanks LXFlyer.

    The Belfield/Blackrock corridor does route along Lower Baggot St on that map and there were certainly lots of maom stream articles in recent years regarding trees being cut along Merrion Road Baggot St, up to 160 trees I believe.

    I expect some of them may still be for the chop?

    It there was some misinformation spread, it would help if the comms department countered the mainstream press articles so that people understood the plans better.

    Animosity towards projects like this will only grow if the comms teams are not making the plans clear to people that dont have an indepth knowledge of the project.

    I understand that some on this thread can easily fly through the documents and understand the proposed lay out very clearly, but not everyone can.

    Some form of Q&A, even online, would help appease residents concerns.

    The Belfield route looks to terminate at Merrion Square. Which is still a fair distance from the retail core of the city if you are pension age or bringing young children with you.

    Is the idea here that people would get another bus from Merrion Square to Grafton St/Henry St, onto Phoenix Park etc?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,822 ✭✭✭rx8


    If you fail the test, you will be given a 2nd chance, (at your own expense though),and failing that, if you were to get the licence elsewhere, they probably would take you back anyway. I was speaking to one of the driving instructors during the week and he said they are churning out 6 new drivers each week but that it's barely just keeping up with the leaving/retirement figures.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,552 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer



    The BusConnects people did counter them - they were quite clear about Lower Baggot Street not being affected. Paper has never refused ink, and the amount of scaremongering and misinformation about the infrastructure projects by certain elements of the media was ludicrous.

    I am afraid that you are now misunderstanding the project as well.

    The link that I posted above, as I stated, was for the infrastructure corridors which are the bus priority measures, not individual bus routes.

    The revised bus network of bus routes is here https://busconnects.ie/initiatives/new-dublin-area-bus-network/ and there are maps and other information at the bottom of that page.

    The two projects are separate under the broader BusConnects banner and the revised network is being implemented first.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,205 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    Appreciate the link and the time taken to send them over.

    When I look at that revised big picutre Bus Map, it just appears very high level and unclear. I cant imagine someone unfamiliar with bus routes navigating a journey using that map.

    Obviously Google etc can help people plan, but why we cant have an interconnected map that is easy to read like the Tube or NY Subway is beyone me. Both places I travel to and never had an issue getting around by using the map on my phone :)

    If i can get confused by the BC map, god help people that arent used to big cities or complexities of foreign travel and transport.

    Another point I have often wondered is what percentage of people do we expect to use the buses?

    Does the project have a target?

    There seems to me to be a large percentage of the population in Dublin that just wont use buses - but they will use the LUAS or the DART.

    Call it snobbery, but whatever it is, it exists.

    Are we putting in infradtructure that ultimatley is already close to its crossover (from car to bus) capacity? How many more people will use the bus from Blackrock or Ballsbridge that dont already use it today?

    Again, none of the critical points are aimed at you. You are always helpful.

    Thoughts above are just my observations.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭xper


    That's on the Dublin Bus recrutiment side I presume? Maybe Go-Ahead's test is a little more lenient - since they moved back from the 'enhanced Saturday' timetsble to the full one, I think I've seen just one cancellation and one curtailment on the app while out and about on south Dublin routes. But man, the flexible bollards protecting cycle lanes around the area are taking a battering!



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,552 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Look further down at the bottom of the page that I linked to - there are 31 local maps under the heading "local maps" which show the information in more detail for different parts of the city.

    During the two consultations they produced local booklets (all available as pdfs online) that gave people additional information about the changes in each area.

    But to be quite honest, as maps go, that BusConnects map is a very clear picture of how the network will look by the end of the rollout. It shows you where you will be able to go and every route is clearly labelled. There's also a frequency table linked to on that page which shows what level of service each route will have.

    As far as navigating the new network once it is up and running, journey planners will tell you how and when you can do particular trips.

    Trying to do that as a schematic diagram is nigh on impossible given the size of the network and the number of bus routes. London has local bus spider maps, but no full network maps any more.

    Suffice to say the network will be based on:

    • 8 Spines offering a high frequency direct service through the city centre, connecting with each other around O'Connell Bridge
    • Four northside orbital east/west routes
    • Four southside orbital east/west routes
    • A circular route around the city centre using the North Circular Road and South Circular Road
    • Three western orbital north/south routes
    • Additional local services in other suburbs
    • Additional radial services to/from the city centre that serve local communities and areas not directly served by the 8 Spines.

    As regards making the bus more attractive, the plan is to give buses far greater priority on routes into the city, and that will involve bus gates, bus lanes, one way routes that will restrict cars from using some of them - but that has to go through the planning process.

    But you're quite right, it has been ingrained into Irish society that having a car is essential, and lack of proper investment in public transport has reinforced that perception. It's going to take time to change that - measures such as the half-price fares for young people up to 25 is trying to reverse that trend. The most vociferous opposition does tend to come from older people, many of whom rightly or wrongly view being to drive anywhere as an absolute right. The reality is that the city cannot cope with that anymore and we need to make all forms of public transport more attactive.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,699 ✭✭✭Midnight_EG


    They've put them in places that you absolutely can not avoid hitting them though



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,484 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Any indication of where the N2 falls under this schedule? Is it with the O or the last "other" phase?



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,484 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    "There seems to me to be a large percentage of the population in Dublin that just wont use buses - but they will use the LUAS or the DART.

    Call it snobbery, but whatever it is, it exists."

    Except it isn't really reflected in surveys done by the NTA. Here are the results of surveys on how people get into the city:

    • Bus 40%
    • Car 16%
    • Luas 12%
    • Rail 6%
    • Dart 7%
    • Walk 16%
    • Cycle 2%

    As you can see, by far most people take the bus to get into the city. A mere 16% car, hell as many people walk into the city then as take the car.

    It shows how ridiculous how much space we give to cars in our city, given how relatively few people use them.

    Buses might not be as "sexy" as Luas/DART, but they actually carry the vast majority of people into our city.

    Interestingly these surveys over the years have not only shown a shrinking percentage of cars entering the city, but also a significant reduction in the actual total number of cars entering the city. Clearly showing that thinking on cars usage into the city is already changing quickly.

    And it will have to continue to change. With the quickly growing number of people in our cities, there is simply no way we can just add more cars, the roads are already congested. Realistically we will either see complete bans of cars from the core city ceter or London style congestion charging. There really isn't any other option. Those "snobby" people either will have no other choice or will have to dig into their pocket.

    Of course all this needs to be supported by improving public transport, which is what BusConnects is all about.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,205 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    I was asking if there was a target for the buses to reach in terms of passenger capacity.

    Good information shared and we can see its 40% currently usimg the bus.

    Where does the govt expect that to peak?

    My point is I dont see it going that much higher, especially with the current busconnects driver fiasco and cancelled ghost buses.

    I know numerous people that have abandoned the bus for the car due to unreliability in dublin.

    The car drivers are still almost 1 in 5 people entering the city, but i suspect many of them will be happy to pay through the nose to continue to do so.

    Remember its not just about comimg imto the city. thats the easiest place to get to by bus or Luas/Dart.

    How many people take the bus to Liffey Valley or Blanch or to the Dublin Mountains or Bray/Howth etc.

    Very few. Even the parking charges at LV has just meant people get a car lift and get dropped off at the gates.

    A Metro is what we need to bring the public with us on an interconnected public transport model.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭Qrt


    Let it be known that unless the current NBRU/DB/NTA/AGC impasse is solved, the W4 and W6 are going to be going a different route on launch. Cheeverstown Road is blacklisted by the NBRU.



  • Registered Users Posts: 244 ✭✭DaBluBoi


    How come? The 27 already serves it. Is it because of anti-social activities?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭Qrt


    The 27 has been suspended post-6pm for the past two months. It just runs straight up the N81 to the Jobstown terminus. Brookfield is an absolute hole so I can’t see the existing W6 routing staying in place. If it’s still not solved come launch then they’ll be doing a pretty long detour after 6pm. Although I’d Go-Ahead are running them then it might work out as the 175 is still running normal route.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,205 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    Would they ever just chuck those kids out of their social house and give it to deserving. Pmenty of people homeless that would respect it.

    Real shame for genuine bus users in that area.



  • Registered Users Posts: 244 ✭✭DaBluBoi


    A while back the tender to operate the W4/W6 was awarded to Go Ahead IIRC. Not sure if things have changed significantly but I'd be a bit surprised if they change the routing



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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,552 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    The W4 & W6 are both going to be GAI routes.

    I would imagine that the W6 would just take the current 175 route in the evenings if Brookfield is still an issue.



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