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Random EV thoughts.....

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,005 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    Yeah I remember watching a video about green hydrogen and the issue is that for it to be economical they need electricity prices to be really low


    So it works when you have lots of excess renewables, but as soon as you scale up then it's no longer excess and the prices go up


    Bizarrely green hydrogen is a self limiting industry, make too much and it becomes expensive

    I agree that batteries are the future, but like I said these ferries can be in service for decades and in the short term I'd prefer to see hydrogen being used instead of LNG or Diesel


    At the very least you won't have to look at the blast of smoke coming from the exhaust stack when the ferry is starting up


    Maybe there's a better stopgap solution, hybrid drives or biogas might be the answer in the short term. The main issue with biogas that I could see is that there's plenty of demand elsewhere as well

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,005 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    Thought you meant a nuclear powered ferry for a minute, might be a tad extreme 😂

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,005 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    That's the problem with it as well, if you're using a load of excess energy then suddenly it isn't excess anymore and you've created demand, and the price goes up as a result

    Like I said, it's a self limiting industry

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,207 ✭✭✭innrain


    There will always be the economics at play. Even if we can get renewable energy unlimited, that is not free to produce and transport. Electrolysis is going to produce H2 with an efficiency of around 70%, meaning a quarter of the electric energy is lost just to produce H2. Then depending on the type of propulsion you're working with some average of 50% efficiency to convert the H2 into mechanical energy (i.e. movement). This makes the whole process electric -> chemical->mechanical at least twice more expensive assuming an efficiency of 70 -80 % electric ->mechanical. It is hard to believe that a commercial entity will go for that at scale.

    but lets put some numbers in

    Renewable electricity-powered hydrogen, or green hydrogen, has a zero-carbon footprint, but this comes at a price.

    As of 2021, the fuel costs about $5 per kilogram in the U.S., according to the U.S. Energy Department, compared to $1.50/kg for gray hydrogen, which is produced without carbon capture.

    https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/news-insights/latest-news-headlines/blue-hydrogen-runs-significant-risk-of-becoming-stranded-asset-8211-advisory-firm-71222790

    The big danger is that the hydrogen will never be green as it has to compete with the other hydrogen production methods which are high polluters. I don't take into account the costs of transport and distribute H2. Currently 96% of H2 is gray, read pollutes, the rest is there just to muddle the waters, to give us something to speak of.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,005 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    Absolutely true, I imagine the only way green hydrogen works is if it's subsidised while grey hydrogen is taxed


    If the target users are only a small number of industries then at least the production can be very close to the point of use. At least for shipping, airports are not necessarily near water sources


    However, the requirement is for purified fresh water and Dublin Bay water is anything but. And desalination and purification isn't without it's problems either

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,232 ✭✭✭waterwelly


    Plenty of nuclear powered aircraft carriers out there so nuclear powered ferries or container ships is surely possible?

    Hinkley C is closer to Dublin than Belmullet yet there is a wierd phobia about mentioning a nuclear power station in Ireland.

    The Brits are going mad building them at the moment while we dither with unreliable wind.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,005 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    A $14 billion ferry seems a tad expensive 😉

    Not to mention the disposal costs when it's finished service

    And tbh there's more successful nuclear plants than Hinkley Point C. So far the only people who'd call that a success are all the construction firms and consultants who've made billions while the plant has produced not a single watt

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,232 ✭✭✭waterwelly


    The point is the UK are diversifying their energy supply whereas we seem to be going with wind, then import nuclear while pretending not to be using nuclear.

    We need a broad mix but if you mention nuclear all the usual answers get bandied about.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 66,643 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    We don't need a broad mix. We need a broad mix in the greater Europe as a whole, not in Ireland. Ireland can do tonnes of cheap wind, Spain and north Africa can do PV, Norway can do hydro / gas and France can do nuclear, all interconnected. That's only short to medium term though, longer term all countries can cope fine and the cheapest (and cleanest) way will be just PV + wind + batteries



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,005 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    Play to what resources we have would be my opinion

    Wind, solar, pumped hydro, biogas for peak power and biomass for winter heating

    We don't have uranium, any spent fuel or radioactive waste disposal facilities or any expertise in nuclear

    Leave it to the countries that know what they're doing and just buy energy when we need it

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 19,829 Mod ✭✭✭✭slave1


    The generation of electricity from a typical 1,000-megawatt nuclear power station, which would supply the needs of more than a million people, produces only three cubic metres of vitrified high-level waste per year, if the used fuel is recycled. In comparison, a 1,000-megawatt coal-fired power station produces approximately 300,000 tonnes of ash and more than 6 million tonnes of carbon dioxide, every year.

    No waste issue for Ireland, a few cubic meters



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,005 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    Yeah but we need special handling and storage, and because we don't have that we'd need to pay another country to deal with our nuclear waste. Given the political sensitivity of this, it would likely be very expensive

    Like I said, leave it to the French and the British and just invest into interconnectors so we can buy energy when needed and sell wind energy when we have excess

    Seems a much better solution for Ireland IMO

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,179 ✭✭✭✭AndyBoBandy


    Yep.

    Being in the power generation industry myself (we do mostly everything including wind, hydro, fossil, nuclear etc…), it would be very nice if we went down the nuclear route, but it would be very very very very expensive, and given Irelands track record with capitol projects, it would end up costing even more than the very very very high initial price we thought we’d be paying.


    Wind is our oil, and if we got our arse in gear we could be a net exporter of electricity, relying on inter connectors & quick start CCGT plants for peaks that wind can’t cover…. We should also look at more pumped hydro storage (they are the batteries), and perhaps green hydrogen from excess wind generation to support a hydrogen led transport system (rail/haulage/public transport).

    Post edited by AndyBoBandy on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 66,643 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Well said @AndyBoBandy. An Taoiseach was spot on when he said wind is Ireland's oil nearly a year ago. Not much has happened since though unfortunately.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 8,264 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    How much wind capacity would €36 billion likely bring us, According to a report in the Financial Times that's the current costs Hinkley C



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 66,643 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Ha, glad you asked. I did some sums a year or two ago and €15 billion would provide over 300% of Ireland's then total national electricity use (about 1000 turbines I think). This is from memory, but someone can quickly confirm if that's ballpark or not. These were the biggest turbines commercially available at the time, iirc 16MW and they have a load factor in Ireland of about 50%, so they produce on average 8MW each (24/7/365)


    That was the cost of installing the turbines, not including the cost of connecting them to the grid. Which is also substantial. And not including the cost of further massive interconnectors we would need to trade our wind electricity with other countries. Which is even more substantial. But you see these figures spread over 10-20 years are really not all that much if you think about the reward lying ahead.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 8,264 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    So for one Hinkley (3.2GWh) we could supply 600% of Ireland's demand let's say 6 * 6GWh. Yep, def think we should become the big wind exporter.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 66,643 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Wind is by far the cheapest form of electricity production. Even in countries that have a lot less wind than Ireland. We could do with a tonne of PV too, Ireland is better for PV than most people think. I produced 31kWh today myself. More than enough for all my electricity needs for 24h, and I put a good bit into the car and into the hot water tank and I heated the house with electricity all day (while it was literally only just a few degrees above freezing). I live in a modest semi-detached house in an estate in a Dublin suburb.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 8,264 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    modest semi-detached house in an estate in a Dublin suburb

    Not everyone can afford to live in houses that cost half a million 😉



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 66,643 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Not quite there @liamog! And you need to talk to my wife, she's forever complaining it's only a starter home that we are still living in 😁



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,179 ✭✭✭✭AndyBoBandy


    I always knew we were way behind in terms of wind generation capacity, but I didn’t realise how far behind we actually were until I sailed from Kiel in Germany to Klaipeda in Lithuania last summer, and we passed about a dozen offshore wind farms, with an average of about 100 or so turbines per farm….

    Likewise with land based wind turbines, Lithuania have a load of them already installed, and I drove past an installation site with a sh1t ton of new turbines being installed only 2 weeks ago.. (Lithuania were one of the 1st countries to completely wean themselves off Russian gas not so long ago and they are really going big on wind)

    They’re also going big on Solar PV, but rather cleverly, they allow apartment dwellers with no roof space to buy into solar farms located outside the cities so everyone has a chance to avail of Solar PV..

    we bought a holiday house there and it’s coming with 19 panels in the roof (they should have been installed by now but the war put a halt on a lot of things, though I believe they are going in this or next week…) It’s something like an 8kW system so we’ll generate our annual usage during the summer (what you feed in, you can take back later for a pittance so the grid effectively becomes your battery storage).

    D3C2BBD8-354C-4AE8-B4C4-73AD383B9826.jpeg

    95% of the houses already have their panels installed but of course I chose a house that was still to get them installed because it had a great roof aspect and sun in the back garden in the evenings… but until the panels are installed the builder is paying for all of our electricity so we’re not complaining!!


    Ireland has so much catching up to do…. Even with countries that would be perceived as being ‘below’ us economically…


    Side note, and bringing it back to EV’s, but Tesla is by far the dominant EV in Lithuania…. For every 1 non Tesla EV I’d see there, I’d see about 10 Tesla’s… couldn’t believe how many there are there… (including lots of U.S. imports)… They love their fast cars there, and they love their Tesla’s



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 66,643 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    For many years, the Tesla Model S and Model X were the best selling EVs in the Netherlands!

    Talking around 2015 / 2016 here. You'd simply have more chance to see a Ferrari than a Tesla in Ireland and over there, you'd literally see one every minute driving on any motorway.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,891 ✭✭✭Old diesel


    This was rather disappointing from my point of view as someone who follows EV tech.....

    How much of this is down to ESB charging and how much is down to the Mustang.....

    Mark is simply reporting his experience on the day so to me that's fine and in fact is good learning for future infrastructure planning.

    Availability of charging at destination would mitigate some of this.....

    But I'm now accustomed to Neyland doing 1000 kms in 9.5 hours so that's my benchmark of what EV technology is currently at.

    Obviously doing 1000 kms in 9.5 hours requires better infrastructure then we have and a better car then the Mustang.....

    But we know that a long Range Model 3 would probably do north of 200 miles before needing a charge.

    And that you'd be adding 50 percent charge in about 20 mins.....

    Tesla much more efficient



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,195 ✭✭✭micks_address


    on the topic of generation - wouldnt wave generation from the sea be our best bet? tides come in and go out every day.. so if you can harness that you dont need to worry about no wind days or cloudy days?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 66,643 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Mach E is a great looking car (albeit grossly overpriced), but like almost all other EVs (notable exception the Teslas), the Cd is very poor at 0.28. And the aerodynamics are crucial for range, as you need your range on motorways at 120km/h.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,828 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    i just skipped through it but would be good to know if he left at 100% (assume he did?) and why he stuck to ESB when ionity are much better for high speed charging, that said the charging curve on the mustang looks to be pretty poor.

    be great to get a summary at the end of the soc leaving, and charge taken in various locations and how long it took.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,018 ✭✭✭kanuseeme




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 66,643 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Yes he fully charged at home before heading off. I only skippe through it myself, but I caught that bit 😂

    Tbh, Mark knows his EVs pretty well now. It wouldn't be too hard to make that trip even in a Mach E with just one charge (while you were having dinner, so not losing much time). If that was really very important to you. But I guess most people doing that sort of distance regularly either don't have an EV yet or if their time is very important to them, they'd get a Tesla, as they simply need the least number of minutes spent charging per 100km driven and can charge among the fastest of all of them in the most convenient and reliable way (supercharger - always working, never queues)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,828 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    seems strange he had to stop 3 times, i would have thought 2 short stops max would suffice, certainly did me in an even less efficient ev going to cork and back, and both stops were less than 20 min.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,828 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    he would have been wrecked regardless, the fact it was an ev added an hour to his trip, its not as if he would have skipped out of his outlander phev fresh as a daisy now is it ;)

    anyway he added probably 30 or 40 of those minutes needlessly by using ESB, deliberately.



This discussion has been closed.
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