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Hybrid as an interim step?



  • Registered Users Posts: 705 ✭✭✭dingbat

    The PHEVs are worst of both worlds point is with regard to carbon and efficiency.

    When you're in EV mode, you're lugging around a big heavy engine, transmission, lots of other metal, so you're getting far fewer kms for your electricity than you should.

    When you're in ICE mode, you're burning more fuel than a non-PHEV car because you are paying to lug around the big heavy PHEV battery.

    That's why it's the worst of both worlds.

  • Registered Users Posts: 500 ✭✭✭PaulJoseph22

    Do you have one?

    my car will plan its journey and is a very efficient vehicle, I can contribute by ensuring I am not doing the above, as in ensuring It’s charged in the right mode et etc etc

    If you have a heavy ev with a large battery, you can apply some of your statements to said scenario.

  • Registered Users Posts: 705 ✭✭✭dingbat

    You mean your PHEV can plan its journey by extracting the ICE engine, transmission and leave them neatly in your garage while it runs around on electricity?

  • Registered Users Posts: 500 ✭✭✭PaulJoseph22

    Can yours run without fossil fuels?

    EV’s don’t suit everyone at this present time.

    Some businesses rely on ICE and ultimately as a consumer so do you.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭Miscreant

    This has not been my experience with a PHEV over the past 2 years. I find it to be the best of both worlds...

    Most of the time I am driving in EV only mode and charge 2 or 3 times a week. In terms of efficiency, I get between 50 and 60km of range from the battery, so around 14 to 17KWh/100km, which is comparable to a decent EV. On a long run, outside of battery range, the car behaves like a standard HEV and I regularly achieve <4l/100km (or 60mpg in old money measurements). The PHEV battery is never flat and provides power even on the motorway. Previous to this car, I had a Toyota HEV and regularly got 4l/100km out of it on a long journey and better in the city. As for carbon; the car may put out more CO2 than a diesel (when the ICE is running) but there are no NOx emissions or particulates to worry about and I have no DPF to get clogged. An equivalent 1.6l car would put out similar CO2 based on my overall petrol consumption figures. I will caveat this with the fact that the petrol engine in a PHEV is not constantly running so the "average" CO2 emissions are a lot lower. PHEVs work out if you keep them charged regularly.

    The extra weight you are "lugging" around in a PHEV is almost cancelled out by the extra battery that a full EV is carrying so there is not that much of a penalty in the real world (in my experience), perhaps the weight of an extra person in the car? I will, however, concede that a PHEV will be heavier than the equivalent ICE vehicle but as the EV part of the system is offering assistance constantly, you do not lose too much efficiency.

    If a PHEV is suitable to your driving pattern then I would go for it. If diesel is suitable, then go for that... same with HEV, BEV, Petrol, Hydrogen, LPG and so on. Each individual knows their own driving habit and the journeys they do so should be able to get an idea of what would suit them. A PHEV works for me as I have mainly shorter journeys within battery range and have the opportunity to charge at work for a reduced cost. I also have the comfort of knowing that if I need to drive a long distance round trip with minimal disruption, I can do so simply by filling up with petrol and carrying on.

    As for the OP; a hybrid is a perfectly reasonable interim step to take, from my experience. I had a petrol guzzling 2l car prior to buying my hybrid and have never looked back. The hybrid was quiet, clean and comfortable and when the time came to change, I went for a PHEV as I did not feel that a full EV was right for me at the time. Diesel was also out, due to my regular short journeys. Like I said above, look at all the options and choose the one you feel is best for you. I would never discourage anyone from buying a particular method of propulsion if it was something that suited them and their usage patterns.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 705 ✭✭✭dingbat

    I'm not arguing that point. I was simply explaining what the "worst of both worlds" bit actually refers to.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,985 ✭✭✭almostover

    That's a different situation, if the car needs replacing for other reasons then do your sums on replacement options. Petrol hybrid, PHEV or EV. Forget about getting another diesel anyway. Best of luck

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,908 ✭✭✭kanuseeme

    There is always one in nearly every thread spouting some rubbish on phevs.

    Hauling the extra weight around is a popular theme, I like to point out per kWh they are the same weight, where as a phev has 10 or more any decent BEV has 70 + that probably does the normal average 20 km daily and nothing is thought of hauling that around.

    Efficiency, my prius phev returned 15 kWh /100 km, my 330e the garage deleted my info, but in the cold weather it was 19 kWh, in summer 16 kWh.

    I think the problem stems from peoples experience of arriving at a charger to find a phev plugged in, when I bought my phev I was not expecting to find a charger available when I wanted it,

    I am glad when I can charge, when I want to, not when I need to eat or when I need the toilet,

    Another thing some have a grip with is the battery range, they are improving some of the new ones are doing 80 km and more, even an old one with 30 km range can return some high mpg on trips exceeding that 30 km.

    For example, my 330e, put 50 euro into it 7th December, I have done 1000km since then, including to the airport and back 320 km, still have 1/8 of a tank left, I put 19.5 kWh into from esb chargers since January 1st, no queuing, no diverting, no stopping because I need a charge, just normal use, shopping, errands etc.

    The car is giving me for that 50 euro/1000km 95 mpg , 3 l/100km, and 13 kWh/100 km its low because of the petrol use.

  • Registered Users Posts: 705 ✭✭✭dingbat

    And the price of that convenience is burning more oil. That's it.

    Your use of the car is great. Bravo. But we need to get off oil.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭Miscreant

    And that is a discussion for another thread.

    I think the OP has been answered at this stage so we can all leave it there.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,908 ✭✭✭kanuseeme

    Sure, I would tell anyone to expect to burn fuel, but some here would rather you buy or keep an ice than buy a phev, for most people their daily needs are 20 or 30 km the range of 99% of the phevs, like my last 5 weeks 70% of my needs were done with little to no fuel use while the 30% was the convenient burning of fuel.

    Trying to get people to go from 100% to 0% is next to impossible without spending millions upon millions on charging infrastructure, even then first reports of queues would turn people off BEV's, its the main reason I did not buy a BEV, the 2nd reason would be the time wasted on my longer journeys, 3rd would be range versus price. A longer range BEV would need a inconvenient loan, a shorter range cheaper BEV would require inconvenient charging for what to save 300 or 500 euro a year.

    I have one car in the house and the foreseeable future it will be a phev, I would like a longer range phev like the 14 kWh outlander or the rav4,

    A phev requires nothing only to charge it, when and where its available, but the idiotic things said here about phevs is beyond belief, a common one was to charge at home, LMFAO, as if the phev knows its at home or not.

    If you want oil gone, you could start by promoting phevs rather than rubbishing them. The less fossil fuel used could allow for increasing the % of renewables in the fuel, my mothers phev has a sticker stating up to 25% ethanol.

  • Registered Users Posts: 500 ✭✭✭PaulJoseph22

    And the convenience of owning a BEV?

    What is powering 50 percent or more of the electricity…

    Why has electricity got so expensive? Just like the oil has that’s used to power it.

  • Registered Users Posts: 705 ✭✭✭dingbat

  • Registered Users Posts: 705 ✭✭✭dingbat

    There is a keen argument for keeping an ICE running, saving the carbon cost of a new machine, and waiting to go BEV rather than taking the PHEV middle step.

  • Registered Users Posts: 500 ✭✭✭PaulJoseph22

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,232 ✭✭✭waterwelly

    This EV and the environment again.

    An EV is still derived from fossil fuels. If it breaks down it's an ICE tow truck you need.

    It's partially powered by fossil fuels, something like 80% of energy globally is derived from fossil fuels.

    Yes in the long, long term, everything electric powered by renewables is where the plant needs to be. But that's decades away.

    Deriding somebody for driving a partly petrol powered PHEV over a partly coal powered BEV is nonsense.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,232 ✭✭✭waterwelly

    Or keep the ICE going even longer and not buy a new machine at all.

    This is a futile argument, PHEV's will suit a lot of people.

    I know somebody who had to sell his BEV because he drove a lot the odd day and couldn't keep it charged.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,232 ✭✭✭waterwelly

  • Registered Users Posts: 157 ✭✭Melted

    Nobody is denying this.

    I think the point is do we need more mobile oil burning engines around?

    Your other statements are ridiculous so broad that they are bordering on strawman levels misdirection.

    how much coal do we use in Ireland to produce electricity?

    who is going around saying we need to be 100% electric?